In this episode of “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki”, Jen sits down with social media darling and provocateur Jack Schlossberg to hone in on how conservatives have come to be the loudest voices online, while Democrats seem to have just ceded the ground. They talk about how to reach young voters — young men specifically — and why Dem’s reluctance to make mistakes has cost them.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jack Schlossberg: You have to be very clear and you have to be very controversial in order to break through, I think. And conservatives are good at playing with that without getting in trouble, and I don’t know that we have come up with our own style of being funny and taking risks. And people talked a lot about how we lost, Democrats lost young men in this election. And I think a huge part of that is like not because we focus on the wrong policies, but because we seem so risk-averse and we seem so cautious.
Jen Psaki: That’s Jack Schlossberg. He is a writer, he is a political correspondent, and, yes, he’s also a Kennedy. At 32, the son of Caroline Kennedy and the grandson of JFK has been doing his own sort of social media experiments to see what sticks, how disinformation travels and how to break through the wall of conservative voices in every corner of the internet.
Hi there, I am Jen Psaki, host of MSNBC’s “Inside with Jen Psaki” and this is “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.”
I am here to try to make sense of what went wrong in 2024, what Democrats may have missed, and what it means, importantly, for the fight ahead. For this episode, I wanted to talk with Jack about where Democrats have fallen short with young people and what lessons they should take away from the right wing online machine that helped elect Trump. I caught up with Jack right after the inauguration.
Jack, first of all, I am very happy to see you.
Jack Schlossberg: Happy to see you.
Jen Psaki: Now for anyone listening, this is the morning after the inauguration. And while some people, because this will come out a couple weeks later may have had some time to digest, you and I are just digesting what just happened —
Jack Schlossberg: That’s right, yes.
Jen Psaki: — yesterday. So, just keep that in mind.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, it is fresh.
Jen Psaki: Everybody listening, it is a little fresh for us. I first met you, I think, through my brother-in-law, Adam Frankel.
Jack Schlossberg: Adam Frankel, one of the best ever.
Jen Psaki: The best ever who not only wrote Kamala Harris’s speech at the convention, but she helped Ted Sorensen–
Jack Schlossberg: Of course.
Jen Psaki: — write an amazing book, and so I met you through him. I was trying to get you on our show. We will still do that. But since then, we have kind of texted just about the Democratic Party, how to communicate. And since the election, a lot about what’s wrong and what we should do, neither of us have all the solutions, but that was one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you about what you think and where we should go from here.
Jack Schlossberg: Well, I am so happy to be here, and I am such a fan of your career, I have to say that, not only your book that just came out, which I read and loved and everybody should read it, but also your time in the White House, working for President Biden, especially as press secretary. You did an incredible job, and you are such a skilled communicator. So, it’s great for me to be here.
Jen Psaki: Thank you. Just for the record, I didn’t ask you to do any of that.
Jack Schlossberg: No it is true though, it is true.
Jen Psaki: Even plug my book.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I am appreciative.
Jack Schlossberg: It is true.
Jen Psaki: Thank you for that, but I’ve loved getting to know you a little bit. And I was just excited to talk to you about all of this. Okay, so social media is such a big topic.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I would say you have been having some fun on social media.
Jack Schlossberg: That is right.
Jen Psaki: You have been messing with people’s heads a little bit on social media. But I think a lot of people may not understand —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — what you are up to a little bit. And I have talked to you a little bit about this, so I kind of, I want to help people better understand. I mean, just yesterday you tweeted, I have to bring this up.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, please.
Jen Psaki: You did it yesterday.
Jack Schlossberg: Please.
Jen Psaki: You tweeted —
Jack Schlossberg: It’s all public.
Jen Psaki: True or false, Usha Vance is way hotter than Jackie O, who —
Jack Schlossberg: That’s right.
Jen Psaki: — everyone should know —
Jack Schlossberg: Who’s my grandmother.
Jen Psaki: — is your grandmother.
Jack Schlossberg: Why would I say something like that?
Jen Psaki: There’s a lot packed into that.
Jack Schlossberg: Creepy.
Jen Psaki: Is it creepy?
Jack Schlossberg: Weird.
Jen Psaki: Yes, why?
Jack Schlossberg: Why would he say something like —
Jen Psaki: So, why did you do it?
Jack Schlossberg: Why did he do that?
Jen Psaki: Right, I am asking you. You did it.
Jack Schlossberg: Isn’t that weird? It’s his grandma, well, that’s why I did it.
Jen Psaki: Because you wanted to be weird.
Jack Schlossberg: I think that the internet is a place where it is difficult to break through and it is difficult to break through, especially if you are not saying something that’s controversial or at least somehow unexpected. And I think that I see that Democrats play that game not as well as we could. And I think that I use my judgment to make posts that I think are funny or silly, but have a purpose either to make you think this guy is crazy, why is he talking about his own family that way.
But to be honest, then you get all these retweets, quotes and everybody flips out about it. And I think that’s kind of the game that the other side has been playing really well, which is flipping people out and getting a reaction is almost half the battle. And not every post is going to be hilarious or risky in some way. Some of them have to be serious and boring, but they can’t all be serious and boring.
And so I think that it’s very important to switch it up and to take risks, because I think that’s not only entertaining for me by myself as I laugh and post it on my phone, but also a good way to signal to people that you are willing to either fight for them or speak your own mind, if you’re willing to say something other people might not get, or you know, might engender a reaction that some people don’t like.
Jen Psaki: I mean that one definitely perplexed people. I was looking at the comments —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — which is always a dangerous thing to do.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, always.
Jen Psaki: And people were like, isn’t this your grandmother?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Question mark.
Jack Schlossberg: Exactly.
Jen Psaki: And then people would actually answer the question —
Jack Schlossberg: Thank you.
Jen Psaki: — which is also —
Jack Schlossberg: Exactly, hilarious.
Jen Psaki: — a strange thing to do because this is what we’re doing.
Jack Schlossberg: Exactly.
Jen Psaki: There are some things, I mean you also claimed you were Justin Baldoni’s —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, that’s right.
Jen Psaki: — lawyer.
Jack Schlossberg: I did.
Jen Psaki: Which you are not.
Jack Schlossberg: No, yes, I am not.
Jen Psaki: You do have a law degree.
Jack Schlossberg: I do.
Jen Psaki: So, I think that confused people.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: But that also took off a little bit.
Jack Schlossberg: Took off, huge. Yes, I don’t know. It just kind of came to me one night. I see everybody arguing online about Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively, two people that otherwise I don’t know anything about or have much invested in. But I saw the entire country seemingly, the entire internet flipping out over this while I was focused on kind of the change of administration and all the serious things that are going on.
And I thought, isn’t this incredible, our culture is obsessed with certain things and not others? Some are more important than others you might say. So, how do you inject yourself and shine a light on that in a way that is like totally out of the box? And for me it was like, well, why don’t I defend the guy who nobody likes and everyone is going to get mad at me. And it’s just kind of like an instinct that I have started to build up. People believed it. People printed it and believed it.
Jen Psaki: Well that’s the thing —
Jack Schlossberg: And they didn’t check. TMZ reported it, a bunch of other people reported it. They said I was Justin Baldoni’s lawyer, hilarious.
Jen Psaki: Well, that, I think, was part of your point.
Jack Schlossberg: Exactly.
Jen Psaki: Right?
Jack Schlossberg: People will print and believe anything.
Jen Psaki: But then the other part of it, which is why most people are unwilling to do what you do is that it can take off. And then people, who you actually care what they think —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — may think you’re Justin Baldoni’s lawyer.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: So, there’s this risk of that too, right?
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: Do you just not care?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, no, I don’t care. I am like, I know no one is going to remember this in a week. I know everyone is going to forget about it because they forgotten about a lot of way more serious things. And I think that, at first, I was freaked out because everyone was mad. And then once people started to understand it was a joke or that I was kind of, it was satire, I think people started to understand the game I was playing.
Jen Psaki: Yes, you’d hope.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: But the point is —
Jack Schlossberg: But I don’t care if people don’t get it because I think it’s funny.
Jen Psaki: So, is it about funny, or is it about you are showing that disinformation and misinformation travels?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, exactly. I think it’s funny that, not funny, but I can’t help but laugh that people believe something so stupid or something so easily corroborated. You could so easily look up and find out that that’s not true. But at the same time, it’s like if we’re too scared to say something like that, then what happens when something that really matters happens, you know. You have to be willing to take risks and speak your mind and live with the consequences and be okay with not everybody understanding you.
Jen Psaki: Okay, those ones I knew immediately —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, yes.
Jen Psaki: — you were messing with people. Now you also put out a video.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I think it was in the fall where you basically claimed that you had had your heart broken, okay.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, that’s right.
Jen Psaki: I was one of, I don’t know how many people, dozens, hundreds of people —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — who texted you. I think I was like, heartbreaks are hard.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You are going to find the right person. I am so sorry this happened.
Jack Schlossberg: I know, so, I —
Jen Psaki: But that wasn’t real.
Jack Schlossberg: I know. I hate that I got you, Jen, but I got you.
Jen Psaki: Well, no, I am okay. I learned from it.
Jack Schlossberg: I got you. Yes, no. I mean like I could not stop laughing when I recorded that video. I thought it was one of the funniest things I have ever done because I would never, if I was actually going through a breakup, I do not think I would want anyone to know how sad I was. So, this was like my way of showing just that people will believe anything. And it is not a game because there are serious consequences to information online. We are seeing that now in this election.
But it also is a game in terms of like, you can speak to multiple different people at the same time and you can speak to different audiences in different ways. Like, I am speaking to people who I know will get this joke and think it’s hilarious. And I am also speaking to the people who I know won’t get it and will take it as bait. And those two people are going to interact, and they are going to think it’s funny that some people don’t get it. And I think that we see that all the time. There is like, everything from dog whistling on policy to jokes like I am making, I think you have the ability to play people based on the reaction you know you are going to get.
Jen Psaki: It is so interesting because you seem to be willing to let yourself be made fun of or let disinformation spread about yourself. But you’re also in some ways, and this is just my take, like manipulating the internet a little bit.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, yes. I love my country, I love politics. I really care what happens. And I have been like everybody, like you paying attention to what is happening in our country and in our politics and in our media. And I am developing instincts, as we all are, as this changes and we get more used to misinformation. It is something that I think deeply about. And so there is also serious points I am trying to make, doing all this.
I have watched the other side, people say that like, you’re saying crazy stuff, people are not going to take you seriously. Why would you air out your stuff in broad daylight? I’m like, are you not looking at what’s going on, on the other side? Like apparently nobody cares and that is kind of the point that I am trying to make. It’s like, yes, you can make fun of me.
I do not think that you are actually going to remember it in a week because something else is going to take your attention and you are going to forget. And then, I am going to do something else and then you will focus on that. And we are all kind of now evolving to understand that’s how the media works and maybe we need different strategies to break through.
Jen Psaki: No, I think this is very true. I mean I have been listening to a number of podcasts, as we like to say, from the other side, which I probably never would have before the election. I mean I have listened to some of Joe Rogan, I have listened to Theo Von. I have not gone down the Steve Bannon rabbit hole because I —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: But I may get there, but point is, the conversations are very different. That is just the sliver of this.
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: And one of the things that struck me is that, how people talk, even though I completely disagree with most of —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — what a lot of those people have to say, but they are not afraid to talk about everything from music to football, to art, to whatever they are into, right?
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: And sometimes I think Democrats, in how they communicate, and you and I have talked about this, are so restrained. It is like they only want to talk about a factsheet that was developed by a Harvard educated policy expert.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes. No, I mean I think Democrats have a real problem messaging online. I spent the first half of the year in 2024 being really frustrated by what I wasn’t seeing online. And then, I spent the second half making my own content, because I decided that the only way to combat misinformation that I can come up with is to put out your own information and to make it more entertaining or at least have it be competitive with what the other side or people you disagree with are putting out.
And as you just said, the kind of conservative leaning voices, especially on social media are so much more compelling to watch, for the most part, or at least they are touching on things from sports, music, like you just said, dating, whatever it is. It is all of it and politics, and they have kind of, I mean I have seen like our culture has been ceded to kind of the right and whereas it maybe my whole life growing up culture institutions were more left leaning. And now I think that’s really flipped on its head, and I think the internet is like the battleground for that.
And I think conservatives are now in the driver’s seat and in the majority of culture and they have kind of convinced, I have to wake up every day now after the election to convince myself that I’m not a loser and convince myself that caring doesn’t make you not cool. And that I was not wrong about everything that I thought. And it’s because I see online, you watch one video about working out and then you are in a rabbit hole of RFK Jr. protein powder, Joe Rogan. None of which is like, in and of itself objectively bad, but all together I think it drowns out competing voices and it’s very hard to break through. And so that’s what I tried to do myself.
Jen Psaki: The experimentation of it I think is important, because no one exactly has the answer, which is why I want to do this podcast —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — why I want to talk to you. What have you found either from your own experimentation with playing around with social media platforms or even just from listening to and consuming —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — the products of some of the people you may totally disagree with works?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, I mean I have like a few thoughts. I think one is the internet is like a nuanced destruction machine. And so there is no room for anything ever, don’t waste your time. If you’re going to tweet something out, make it so extreme, like that’s what Trump does. It’s like a completely clear statement, take it all the way. And that’s the only thing that really resonates online because everything else, it’s too confusing otherwise.
And the other thing is you have to be controversial or unexpected. So, you have to be very clear and you have to be very controversial in order to break through, I think. And conservatives are good at playing with that without getting in trouble. And I don’t know that we have come up with our own style of being funny and taking risks. And people talked a lot about how we lost, Democrats lost young men in this election. And I think a huge part of that is like not because we focus on the wrong policies, but because we seem so risk-averse and we seem so cautious. And I do not think that in general, young men find that as attractive as a more risk on kind of say whatever you want attitude.
Jen Psaki: You said this thing and I wrote this down because it just stuck with me, as I think it’s important people to hear on. On the Vogue podcast, I think it was the morning soon after the election, everything was quite raw, as we have been talking about. You said, I think that a lot of people in my age maybe aren’t really proud to be a Democrat. And I think that the selection is very interestingly showing that Democrats have some work to do there, which is, I am a believer you just lost. So let’s, everybody, talk about what just happened and where you go from here.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Do you think it’s about how people communicate? Is it about policy issues? Is it about both? Is it about not connecting? Like when you talk to your friends, what do they say?
Jack Schlossberg: Well, for my own life, I grew up with stories of people that I was related to who were Democrats, who gave their lives to public service. And I had these real examples of no, no, no, like the Democratic Party cares. They care about working people, they champion healthcare, they champion immigration, civil rights, kind of all the issues that I consider the defining issues.
But I only know that because there’s pictures of these people in my house and because my mom talks about them, and because I would happen to be interested in it on my own. But I think when you talk to somebody my age or younger, they do not have all the context. And like they grew up in a world with like only a few examples. Like Bill Clinton, we were still really young. So, you got George Bush, Obama and Trump and Biden more recently.
And it’s like that does not give you a whole lot to go with in terms of what Democrats actually stand for. It is like, it is really confusing now. It is very confusing. You are being fed a whole narrative about how Democrats hate everything. And all we care about is like gender, which we do, and is important, but wasn’t always the defining issue of the Democratic Party, was not reproductive rights. And, I mean, that was this campaign.
Before that, it was like working people, working families, labor unions, and that’s now all on the other side. And so, I think young people are like any other people, they need to be given clear arguments and reasons why they should support a candidate or a party. And I haven’t heard a super compelling, clear argument from any Democrat about something that really resonates with young people beyond kind of democracy and civil rights broadly.
Jen Psaki: Does that stuff feel, I mean I have wondered this, but like after the election, I kind of felt like obviously the threat of fascism is an issue, right. Obviously, the threat of rising autocracy is an issue. To me, it always felt very academic and that a lot of people, including me and others were talking about things in a way that was how you talk about things in a college classroom.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, right.
Jen Psaki: And not how people are talking about things. And I am not even necessarily speaking of how people at their kitchen tables talk about things in Missouri. I mean, you are a Harvard educated guy who is a Kennedy. It’s not exactly like you grew up with nothing but you also, I think, share this concern about —
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: — language.
Jack Schlossberg: Totally. Yes, I mean I think that I would be very, very disappointed if the Democratic Party took the lesson from this election that we went too far left and that our policies were too extreme. I would say that they were just way too big and not far enough. And that we kind of got scared of our own shadow in a lot of ways. And we were, or at least like I find it hard to not kind of believe the narrative that is being fed to me about my party from the other side. It’s like, it’s convincing when you hear it every day.
Jen Psaki: And what do you think the narrative is from the other side?
Jack Schlossberg: That we like are losers. We do not care about the economy and that we like actually want to make things more difficult in order to help a perceived group that nobody knows who they are. Like we are so incompetent because we care so much about the wrong thing. Like I just think that we are incompetent is like the message and that we like just don’t get it. We don’t get anything. We don’t get how it really works.
Jen Psaki: Do you think that, I am just going to restate.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Like you and I both believe that Democratic Party and Democratic —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — values are hugely important, and this is trying to get to the root of why nobody is hearing that. Do you think that part of it is, and you worked for the campaign, but that Joe Biden is older and people did not feel he connected, but then Kamala Harris was the candidate? Was it more than the candidate, it was a bigger issue than that?
Jack Schlossberg: Well, I mean, I do not have an answer, and I was frustrated by this in real time. I mean I consider Joe Biden to be the most successful president of my lifetime whose legislative, I mean, you were there. And you know how much it got done from climate, infrastructure, the list goes on. I do not think people got that because I still just think that we are too scared.
We are too scared to say what we really want. And we saw it toward the end, like toward the end, we started saying like ban assault weapons. Toward the end, we started like, the last day, that Equal Rights Amendment. Like we got a little bit scared, I think, of doing those things for fear of not playing to the middle, and we didn’t win the middle anyway. So, it did not work.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: We are going to take a very quick break here. But when we come back, more with Jack Schlossberg and the backstory to another one of his viral moments.
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Jen Psaki: So, you kind of have this very interesting vantage point for a range of reasons. One is you did some campaigning with people, candidates.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Including Josh Shapiro. I am just going to go on the record that I find mayonnaise to be the most disgusting thing —
Jack Schlossberg: It is the best.
Jen Psaki: — that exists on the planet. Like I literally feel faint saying the word out loud.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: And I can’t have it in my fridge. You are a mayonnaise lover.
Jack Schlossberg: Or was that just a prank?
Jen Psaki: Well, I do not know.
Jack Schlossberg: No, I am just kidding. I love mayonnaise.
Jen Psaki: Do you actually like mayonnaise?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, I love it.
Jen Psaki: If you actually hate mayonnaise, you would never talk —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — about putting it on pizza. Let me just say that.
Jack Schlossberg: I love it.
Jen Psaki: But it is kind of funny.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I mean I refreshed my memory about it before we talked, but I remembered the video.
(BEGIN VT)
Jack Schlossberg: A lot of people think this is weird, but it is true. Mayonnaise is my favorite food.
Josh Shapiro: Mayonnaise?
Jack Schlossberg: I absolutely love it. I will put it on anything. I wish I had some right now, so I could put on —
Josh Shapiro: You would not put that on your pizza.
Jack Schlossberg: A hundred percent, the whole thing will be covered.
Josh Shapiro: Dude, that’s gross.
Jack Schlossberg: I know.
(END VT)
Jen Psaki: Well, how did you come up with that? Did you talk to the Shapiro team? What was the reception?
Jack Schlossberg: It was all very like, my whole experience over the campaign was like very much kind of how that came together. It was like, everything was happening all at once. There was no plan. And like that came out of my mouth and then they did a really good job editing it, his team, and put it up front and picked it up. That was a really good moment. And then, everyone knew that I love mayonnaise, but I would say that it just shows you that —
Jen Psaki: All the ladies listening —
Jack Schlossberg: Right.
Jen Psaki: — decided if that’s on your —
Jack Schlossberg: But it just shows you that the things that you plan, oftentimes with communicating, the things you plan the least, the things that you’re not really thinking about, the things that are not about like policy is just like, I love mayonnaise. Like that’s what people connect to and for some reason that is like familiar. People say, oh, I hate it or I love it or whatever.
And then, that is how the internet works. It’s like, oh, like, but meanwhile I have injected into their minds that Democrats are not lame because like they are watching my video and we are eating pizza and we are having fun. But it is not about that, it is about like mayonnaise, is it good or bad? And everyone has a take.
Jen Psaki: That video and some of the stuff you did made me think about, when I was working for Obama, and I worked for him for 10 years, he was a person who could kind of pull off things online. Everybody can’t, which is a challenge.
Jack Schlossberg: True.
Jen Psaki: You do not have to name names, although you can. I know some people can’t, but it works for some people and doesn’t work for others. So, you have to kind of find the authentic thing.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Which can be hard. And we always thought about it as we want people to look at this video or this photo or this event or whatever it is, who aren’t clicking refresh on whitehouse.gov, the audience beyond that.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Right? How do you think about that question? When you talk to these campaigns or were working with them, how did they think about it?
Jack Schlossberg: This was like the most interesting part of this campaign cycle and something that makes me very optimistic and hopeful was like, I remember when like going on “Meet the Press”, like you were saying before the interview, like having an op-ed, that was all you needed.
Jen Psaki: I know we were saying, just to repeat.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Because I think it is where, and you and I agree on this, there’s still, and I’ve lived in Washington on and off for over 20 years, still a stunning percentage of people. And you know this because you have talked to a lot of these elected officials too, who think that if they have a written op-ed in “The Washington Post” and I’m not just trying to pick on “The Washington Post”, because Jeff Bezos is a tech bro, who’s part of the oligarchy, that’s a part of it, but that if they do that and they do a press conference on the steps of the Capitol or the Cannon House Office Building, that the world will hear them.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: And they will not.
Jack Schlossberg: Not quite, yes. No, I mean I think this was the first time, I mean I can imagine if you ask a politician five years ago, will you sit down with an influencer and make a video and let them interview for five minutes whatever they want? They would be like, are you kidding me? And then, I show up at the DNC and it’s like, every candidate wants to have videos made with influencers, no matter if they have a million followers or 10,000.
And I thought that I was like, that really opened my mind, and I thought that was a really good thing for us to try to get our message out there. But yes, as you said, it is like, you cannot be fake. It is all about like being comfortable and not being scared to be like, I was so encouraged by that people liked my videos because I think that I am like a goofy, silly person and not everybody gets it.
Jen Psaki: Oh, you’re quirky in the best way.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, but like people get it.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Jack Schlossberg: And it is like so surprising and encouraging that people are receptive to that, whereas you would think like at first everyone said it was a terrible idea what I was doing.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Jack Schlossberg: Everyone said I was an idiot and crazy and I was like, I think people will get it. So, I think it is like, it shows trust in other people when you’re willing to expose different types of your personality. And you let people see that like, and you trust them to interpret you for who you are and not be like, oh, he said that, well, I will never listen to him again. And like, no, it is not really how people work
Jen Psaki: In a weird way, I have thought about how the Trump era has kind of destroyed many things, but I will just focus on what is presidential and what is presidential aspiring or not. And there kind of aren’t rules anymore, and that’s a scary thing. And I am not even going to go down the rabbit hole of his control over many platforms. But I do think it has made it, so that people expect an accessibility and a realness and an authenticity —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — about people they may vote for or support or get excited about in the media, but also elected officials and people running for office in a way that was not the case 10 years ago.
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: Like it totally shifted.
Jack Schlossberg: Totally, I feel like, I mean we ceded the whole internet to the right and we did not make anything good on there. And of course, we lost, is how I see it. And like, what did you think was going to happen if no one was making any videos that anybody was watching and we are just getting worked on TikTok and Instagram every single day? And so I do not know where it’s going to progress, but I think that it is a good thing that, it is like if cancel culture is dead and woke means you lose, then we should embrace that and say, okay, great, like let’s use those tactics to our own advantage and be entertaining and not worry so much about people misunderstanding us.
And I think that’s kind of what I try to do online, is, like, I am not going to worry so much about someone thinking that I am not acting the way I should. Like I am going to trust that people will get it and that is okay. And also by the way, just one thing, you said that you did not want to get into the tech bro.
Jen Psaki: Oh, go ahead, we can.
Jack Schlossberg: I think that this is the most important thing in the entire world.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Jack Schlossberg: I think that social media companies are all working with the Trump administration. Elon Musk owns X. They own all of the data and basically all of the media in our country and they are all in bed with the current administration. And we cannot rely now on the pendulum swinging back and forth. It is like, they are going to produce a TV show every single day online that says that they are winning and says a different version of reality.
And we can no longer expect people to understand what’s going on and react to the outcomes of policy when it is completely divorced. And this is like the biggest propaganda machine that’s ever been invented. And if we do not get our stuff together and have a coordinated, we need a full-time campaign online, like we had during Kamala’s campaign, 24/7. It is like that cannot end after the election, they’re going. I mean, I am like, there’s no way we win, there’s no way we claw back power, unless we do something about that or get competitive on there.
Jen Psaki: I think this is also the most important issue. And I more was like, let me ask you this question —
Jack Schlossberg: No, no.
Jen Psaki: — first because I think for anyone who does not understand this, I mean Elon Musk has completely taken over Twitter or X, whatever we are calling it these days. It is an absolute dumpster fire of right wing propaganda —
Jack Schlossberg: It is insane.
Jen Psaki: — insanity. You are still on there. I am still on there, in part because I have 1.3 million followers and I’m like, I do not want to give that up. But then I’m like, what’s the point anymore?
Jack Schlossberg: Right.
Jen Psaki: But then you also have Mark Zuckerberg who apparently went through some sort of strange immense consulting that resulted in what we are seeing these days, but he controls other major platforms. Then you have TikTok, which now, if Trump tries to save it, maybe one of his buddies is going to buy it. Those platforms together, how the majority of people in this country are consuming news.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes. And it is like they are driving, you know this, they are driving traditional media as well. Like traditional media is now like running off of what social media is trending. So it is like, this is like out of control in my opinion. And it is not going to, people are not going to like see Trump again and realize that they don’t like him like they did before, if they did. It’s like, no, no, no, this is completely different.
Now, everyone is convinced that Democrats are actually completely incompetent and only care about like purposefully ending the world. And we don’t have an answer, and we are not funny and we are not enter entertaining. I mean don’t get me wrong, there are amazing politicians out there who are doing a great job, and I am inspired by a lot of them. I am inspired by Chris Murphy. I am inspired by Gretchen Whitmer, Governor Shapiro, Governor Newsom, the list goes on, but it is not coordinated, and it is not centralized like the other side has.
Jen Psaki: I have thought a lot about, I root for all of the people who may run for president one day, may it be many. There are lots of good people as I am sure you do too. But because I worked in communications for 20 years, I am like, I have so many thoughts for each of them and their advice.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You have probably thought about what you wish a lot of these people would be doing. As we look to the next two years, I mean if Democrats can win back the House, Trump will never get another piece of legislation passed. House candidates, people who are running for House, they do not have as much money as people in the Senate. They do not have as much money for people running for president. They can use these platforms, what should they be doing?
Jack Schlossberg: Well, I do not know. First of all, I don’t know.
Jen Psaki: Everyone is different, but yes.
Jack Schlossberg: But I think that it seems like the candidates who have done well on Democratic side have been able to kind of like pick their own brand of being a Democrat based on where they’re at and not having to sign up to every, or they’re allowed to distance themselves in some ways. I think that is going to be critical for people to be able to actually tailor what they are doing to where they are at and to hear from constituents. But basically, I really think that they need to be just making tons and tons of videos. If they don’t do that, they are not going to win.
Jen Psaki: Lots of content.
Jack Schlossberg: You need to flood the zone. It’s like literally half the battle is just getting stuff out there.
Jen Psaki: Try things. It’s so interesting, one of the things we have learned, and I am sure you’ve had someone ask you this too, I was like, I want to engage on all these platforms. I am a believer, this comes from my background. You just have to try all of the things.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You should not be so locked up about what things you will try and what platforms you will try. And so when I started engaging on TikTok and Instagram Reels, I started just doing videos where I would just put my phone up on my desk.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, you do a really good job.
Jen Psaki: Well, thank you for that. But like where I would just say like this crazy thing happening in D.C.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: People do all sorts of things behind the scenes, make up charts, whatever. That’s all fine, different things work for different people. Those are more engaged with than any video we do from the show. And it is so interesting —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — because it is just kind of a stream of consciousness thought. But what have you found, are there things that you —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — thought were going to be, people would find interesting and engaging that didn’t work and things you’ve done that have worked?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes. I would say I had a hypothesis that attacking would be the best way to get.
Jen Psaki: Attacking.
Jack Schlossberg: Attacking.
Jen Psaki: Kind of trolling and attacking other people.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, which I still think is like, I think we need to be attacking way harder all day long. But that has to also be paired with a softer side, hence my breakup video, for example. Oh, he’s softer, romantic. You have to —
Jen Psaki: Did people like asking you out —
Jack Schlossberg: I do not read —
Jen Psaki: — on your platforms?
Jack Schlossberg: I do not read that stuff, but I am sure.
Jen Psaki: Maybe.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, maybe, maybe.
Jen Psaki: Okay, that is not the way to get to you, who are interested in (inaudible).
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: You don’t read it, okay.
Jack Schlossberg: But I mean there are some things I know that are going to be controversial, if I talk about one of my family members, if I say something about being Justin Baldoni’s lawyer maybe. But there are things like pictures of me doing ballet, that is like, I think, my most liked post.
Jen Psaki: So, you have done a lot of those. How long have you been doing ballet?
Jack Schlossberg: Like for about like a year and a half.
Jen Psaki: Only a year and a half?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: My impression was it was something you did as a kid and you just like —
Jack Schlossberg: I wish.
Jen Psaki: — reengage in it.
Jack Schlossberg: I wish.
Jen Psaki: You clearly love it.
Jack Schlossberg: I love it.
Jen Psaki: But it also feels to me, but tell me if I am wrong, because you have also talked about toxic masculinity.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: That you are kind of making a point.
Jack Schlossberg: Of course.
Jen Psaki: Are you making a point —
Jack Schlossberg: Of course.
Jen Psaki: — with doing ballet on your videos?
Jack Schlossberg: Of course, everyone thinks ballet is like for girls or something and it is not. Dancers are the most athletic people in the world.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Jack Schlossberg: There are like many heroes, cultural heroes, cultural icons are ballet dancers. There are so many amazing male ballet dancers. There are so many amazing female ballet dancers. I think it is an ancient tradition. It is the most beautiful thing. Hardest sport, I think, that there is. And I think there is something very manly about it that people do not recognize as manly maybe.
But I also think that like, it just plays against the trope that you are seeing of like manly, meaning like jacked dude, who’s like this, when it’s like not necessarily. Also like, I bet you can’t even dance well, if you’re that jacked, like you can’t move around that good. So, that’s what I’m saying.
Jen Psaki: It struck me because, and as I said earlier, I mean I have listened to a lot of these and we have just acknowledged basically that some outlets like Joe Rogan and others on the right do things better than Democrats.
Jack Schlossberg: Totally.
Jen Psaki: But they are part of the pushing of toxic masculinity —
Jack Schlossberg: Oh yes, totally.
Jen Psaki: — as well.
Jack Schlossberg: I mean like I think we got to get over masculinity in general. And I think like the one way to attract men, like the worst way to appeal to a young man is to try. Like if there is one thing that young men do not respect is people who try. And I feel like if we just like —
Jen Psaki: Do not be too thirsty.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Candidates out there.
Jack Schlossberg: Just stop, like I am not going to go like work out with you just to make you think I am a guy. Like I think you are going to have to take my word for it. And like, I am going to have to like show you my personality and show you that we can relate on another level. Because like, I don’t know anything about UFC or college football. That is just not my thing. So if we have to play that game, I am going to lose and I am going to look fake.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: Next step, I will talk with Jack about why he’s become JD Vance’s top troll.
(ADVERTISEMENT)
Jen Psaki: Let me ask you about the trolling because there is this interesting balance that I think is tricky. I think a lot of people are struggling with, including myself, of the balance between seeming reasonable and returning to norms, right? You know, Joe Biden and Jill Biden hosted the Trumps for a tea. What in the hell kind of tea that was, I have no idea, one day we will learn. They rode in the car as presidents have for generations. I support that in general, but there is this weird feeling of how do we support norms and not be dishonest about what we are seeing.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Have you thought about that?
Jack Schlossberg: I mean, I just kind of cannot believe that we keep falling for the same, I mean I thought when Jill Biden, former First Lady went to the Notre Dame Cathedral and then Trump had released all those pictures of like Trump cologne with her staring at him. And I was like, are we really going to like keep on playing this game and acting like, like he acts very polite in private and then they go and they use it in the most brutal, possible way that they can.
So like, why can’t we also prepare for that too? And be like, sure, we will show up and be nice and also try to manipulate this to get what we need, because that is what they are going to do to us every single time. And if we do not do it back, like we deserve to lose. Like if we do not make fun of them and if we do not have our own ideas and we just say that they’re bad, then we deserve to lose because that is not convincing.
Jen Psaki: In the trolling category, I mean you have done Hegseth, you have done some things about all sorts of my favorite people.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Hegseth, JD Vance.
Jack Schlossberg: I love them.
Jen Psaki: JD Vance.
Jack Schlossberg: JD.
Jen Psaki: Your uncle, RFK Jr.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, cousin, my cousin.
Jen Psaki: Your cousin.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Sorry, your cousin.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I don’t have the family tree in front of me. Your cousin, who is your favorite to troll?
Jack Schlossberg: The Hey JD videos did pretty good.
(BEGIN VT)
Jack Schlossberg: JD? JD, I am at the Senate. I am at the steps of the Capitol, JD, but you do not think that Trump lost the 2020 election.
JD, I miss you.
Hi, JD. It’s me, Jack. I’m at Kamala HQ and I miss you. And I was just thinking about you and wondering why you refuse to accept the results of the 2020 election.
What do I do, JD? JD, will you be my dad?
(END VT)
Jack Schlossberg: Those did pretty good online. I think that my cousin RFK Jr. is a menace and is a threat to our public health system. I really hope that the Senate does not confirm him as the head of HHS. I think that he has shown utter contempt for doctors in the medical community and for all the problems of American healthcare system. I think we are still the enemy of the world and doctors work incredibly hard.
I have a doctor who’s my brother-in-law. The guy who works harder than anybody I know. I do not see doctors going around trying to hurt people. And I do not see the medical community going around and trying to make people’s lives worse, and that’s what he preaches. And I think that that is incredibly dangerous and that his anti-vax policies will have bad results for human health.
Jen Psaki: Plus he had a dead bear carcass in his car.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, yes.
Jen Psaki: That is the weirdest story I have ever heard in my life.
Jack Schlossberg: You know, my sister broke that story.
Jen Psaki: I know.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, amazing.
Jen Psaki: It’s like, how was that?
Jack Schlossberg: Amazing.
Jen Psaki: What did you think of the whole thing?
Jack Schlossberg: Oh, I know. She was just like, so yes, I don’t know. You’d have to ask her.
Jen Psaki: That is just a completely crazy thing. You also spent some time, so you did some campaigning. You also spent some time as a Vogue correspondent.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, I did.
Jen Psaki: And the state of the media right now is a part of the problem as well.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I think it is fair to state. There is like fear of lawsuits, there is fear of Trump getting mad, that there is sometimes an obedience in advance.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: That we are seeing a little bit out there. What did you learn from being a Vogue correspondent? You were authentically who you are.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I mean people knew what you believed and what do you think about the state of the media right now?
Jack Schlossberg: Well, I learned a lot from working with Vogue. I think that I was so lucky to be able to do that. I had great partners there. I think that I learned that there is so much strategy behind making a video good. And it really matters, a lot of work goes into making a video do well, especially if there is some real information that you are trying to get through. So, I have a lot of appreciation for people who do that because it’s not easy.
And your second half was like about defamation. I think this is one of the scariest things that’s happening right now. The Baldoni prank was also kind of a commentary on that as well. He is suing “The New York Times” for $250 million for defamation. And we are now seeing that defamation law is changing in real time. ABC settled there their suit with Trump. A lot of people are caving, and it is going to send a chill to publishers, I can only imagine.
So, I do not know what to say about that, but I think that you got to just not play scared. It’s like, how could this go worse? I don’t think it could get worse than this. We just got totally booted out of power. And Trump has like a massive mandate to make policy and do whatever he wants. I mean that’s what the American people voted for. And like, so what are we holding back for?
Jen Psaki: That’s a good question. You have kind of, I don’t know if it is a pressure, maybe you don’t feel a pressure. I mean because of who you are, because you are JFK’s grandson, because you have this big social media platform, I mean I think there are people have said, I am now going to like, family tree, like your uncle like started this amazing magazine, like should you do that? Do you ignore all that or kind of, where do you want, as you look to the next two years or four years or whatever it is, to have your voice heard? Is it on these social media platforms or something else?
Jack Schlossberg: Well, I think that I have an instinct for social media that I am growing more and more confident in, and I really enjoy playing that game. And I think that’s where people are needed right now is actually on, so it is like hilarious to say that like serving my country would mean posting online, but I really do now think that. I really see a massive hole and I do not see anything getting better until that is filled.
I mean it’s like, this is very basic, but it’s like it is propaganda being used against people.
And I am not going to sit by and let that happen, unanswered. That said, there’s a lot of ways to serve. I went to law school. I love politics. I wish I did not love politics, but I do. It is like, I cannot help it. It is, to me, the most interesting, fascinating thing. I cannot ever stop talking about it. I cannot sleep a lot of nights just because I am thinking about it. Whenever I go home —
Jen Psaki: Same.
Jack Schlossberg: — my parents and my sisters just like beg me to stop, to just stop talking. So for better or worse, I love it and that is never going to change. And so, I think I plan to stay very engaged and adapt with the times in terms of what that looks like.
Jen Psaki: It seems like it could be a million things.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Are you going to be out there, campaigning with people running in tough races over the next two years? Do you think you will do that again?
Jack Schlossberg: I am going to be making content.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Jack Schlossberg: And I am going to be doing that both on my Instagram and stuff and then hopefully in another outlet.
Jen Psaki: Oh, intriguing.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: When are we going to learn more about that?
Jack Schlossberg: Not today, but not because I am hiding anything just because I am still getting it together.
Jen Psaki: No, it is all good.
Jack Schlossberg: But yes.
Jen Psaki: That is interesting. So in another outlet, that’s great. I feel like this period of time is really dark and we have talked about a lot of dark freaking things. So, let me just end on kind of a more uplifting note. We were talking before we were being recorded about Senator Chris Murphy and how he kind of gets it —
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — on the threat of the social media platforms. I know he is interesting too. He is interesting to me too. Who excites you out there? Are there people who could run who maybe no one’s heard of or who are already prominent figures who you think that is an interesting, exciting person, I hope they do something more?
Jack Schlossberg: Yes, there are a lot of people. Senator Murphy is one, and I have been very impressed and motivated by the rhetoric that he’s been using since the election. He has been very, very clear and he is focusing on what I think is the issue that we should be focusing on, which is corruption and the growing influence of billionaires on the administration. I think that like, that is what we need to be hitting every single day.
And he’s doing that in no uncertain terms and he is not qualifying his message. But yes, the irony is our bench is so deep and there is so many great people with great media presence, Josh Shapiro, Gavin Newsom, Governor Whitmer I mentioned. I don’t know about their presidential prospects, like I cannot let myself do that —
Jen Psaki: So far away.
Jack Schlossberg: — because I have to stay focused, but I just hope that they keep making videos. I just want more people to make more videos online that are not from the voices that are already out there who are supporting this president, who I do not support. I just think that like, it could not be more important. Everyone is on their phone all day long and every day people are being brainwashed.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: That is true.
Jack Schlossberg: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Important to remember. Jack, I love your quirkiness —
Jack Schlossberg: Thank you.
Jen Psaki: — and weirdness and authenticity.
Jack Schlossberg: Thank you.
Jen Psaki: And I love hearing what you have to think. So, thank you for taking the time.
Jack Schlossberg: Thanks for having me. This is awesome. Thank you, Jen.
Jen Psaki: Thank you.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Thanks for listening to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.” We will be back next Monday with a new episode. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcast to get this and other MSNBC Podcasts ad free. As a subscriber, you will also get exclusive bonus content. The senior producer for The Blueprint is Margaret Menefee and our producer is Vicki Vergolina. John Ball is our associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner and we had additional support from Makena Roberts.
Our crew this week was Ben Parsons and Charlie Maccarone. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Alex Lupica is the executive producer of Inside with Jen Psaki, and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. I am your host, Jen Psaki. Search for The Blueprint wherever you get your podcast and follow the series.