In this episode, MSNBC’s Jen Psaki sits down with former CNN primetime anchor turned independent journalist, Don Lemon. Don talks about the new perspective he has gained from ditching the formality of a studio and becoming a leaner, meaner media machine. And they touch on how Democrats have been slower to catch up to the evolving media ecosystem. Don believes the Democratic party, despite their ‘big tent’ legacy, are shooting themselves in the foot by having some outdated purity tests that only isolate them further from voters they need to win over.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
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Don Lemon: I think that Democrats, especially Democratic politicians, are still enamored with the patina of legacy media and the influence there and they’re not understanding where the culture is going as it relates to the media.
Jen Psaki: If you spent any time in the last decade catching up on the day’s news in primetime cable territory, you probably recognize that voice. It’s Don Lemon. He was one of CNN’s primetime voices for over eight years before being abruptly let go in 2023. Don’s been in the anchor chair, he’s covered countless breaking stories and elections writ-large. And now he’s sort of an outsider looking in, which I think gives him a unique perspective on what’s working in Democratic politics and strategy and the impact of a massively changing media ecosystem. (MUSIC PLAYING)
Welcome to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.” That’s me. I was excited to talk with Don for this episode for a few reasons. Don was an influential host on Primetime Cable for eight years, and he continues to report on the world around him. Now from a very different perch. So he has a very distinct take on the media ecosystem and how new media is changing, how people get information. He’s also not shy about talking about how well conservatives have galvanized their party while Democrats in his view need to tamp down their purity tests. Don and I spoke in January, just before the inauguration.
Don Lemon, I’m so happy to see you.
Don Lemon: Jen Psaki, live and in living color.
Jen Psaki: In living color.
Don Lemon: It’s so good to see you. Usually we’re by satellite, right?
Jen Psaki: We’re usually by satellite. But I mean, I think I first met you, maybe I met you before this, but we spent a lot of nights, which you may or not never remember, during the Democratic primary leading up to 2020. During the Trump administration, you had the glamorous job of anchoring many, many hours through the overnight, and I was often on the panel that you were moderating.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: But I was thinking about that mainly because, I mean, leading up to 2016, everybody got it wrong, right?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: In many ways during that primary, that we were overnight eating lots of Swedish fish and whatever, that’s what I remember. Mitch Landrieu was there, I remember that.
Don Lemon: Yeah. I remember that.
Jen Psaki: Andrew Gillum, that was our crew.
Don Lemon: Yes. Oh my gosh, yeah, and Andrew, I remember he gave me like, he had a bullet bracelet on that he had gotten for–
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Don Lemon: — it was about gun awareness, right?
Jen Psaki: Yes, yes. So that was our crew. And everybody kind of got that primary wrong too.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And now here we are. I’m not saying you got all these wrong, but I would say the media ecosystem writ-large and everybody contributing and on all these TV panels all got it wrong. And here we are again. And a lot of people got it wrong again.
Don Lemon: Jen, I didn’t get it wrong in ‘16.
Jen Psaki: You didn’t get it wrong in ‘16.
Don Lemon: I didn’t get it wrong in ‘16, yeah.
Jen Psaki: Well, this isn’t even necessarily you because you have called things out. We did an interview leading up to this year where you had some warning signs.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I mean, writ-large, right?
Don Lemon: Yeah, that’s true.
Jen Psaki: How do we keep doing this ecosystem?
Don Lemon: It’s an echo chamber. It’s an echo chamber and everyone is just sort of listening to everyone else. And I think there’s a lot of wish casting, especially among Democrats. There’s a lot of wish casting where Republicans are just going for it. And even if they don’t think they’re going to win, well, if they don’t think they’re going to win, they go even harder and —
Jen Psaki: So what do you mean by we want Kamala Harris to be president?
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: So we’re going to say she’s going to win and be president.
Don Lemon: You want Hillary Clinton to be president, so you’re going to say you’re going to win for whatever reason. I’m not making a judgment about it. Either you want her to win because she’s a woman or you want Kamala Harris to win or Barack Obama to win because he’s black or because of the diversity or just because in many ways because of democracy. The Democratic Party is the only party that’s fighting for democracy and trying to hold democracy together. I don’t think they’re doing a great job of it. I’m not a Democrat. I’m an independent.
But I think people saying that they voted for a Democrat or they want to vote for a Democrat because they want to help democracy or save democracy, I think that’s a real thing. But I think that’s also part of wish casting as well, instead of just looking at what is actually happening and —
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: — actually speaking to the people and listening to the people.
Jen Psaki: What do you mean? I mean, I’m often struck by that. Even though I lived on and off in Washington for a long time and now I spent a fair amount of time sitting on a cable news set.
Don Lemon: But you know.
Jen Psaki: But I’ve spent many campaign cycles out in the country talking to people. I love doing that now. You love doing this. And it’s like sometimes people make projections and you’re like, based on what?
Don Lemon: On what?
Jen Psaki: Right?
Don Lemon: When you’re out there, you get an idea —
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: — of what’s happening.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Don Lemon: Based on what, yeah.
Jen Psaki: But also, since we were sitting on that set together —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — you’re now on the outside of cable news —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — looking in.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: What is that like and what do you see differently now about your old job in the industry that you wouldn’t have thought at that time?
Don Lemon: You know that old thing, the definition of insanity is —
Jen Psaki: Is doing the same thing over and over.
Don Lemon: Yeah, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. I think that with legacy media and folks who are sort of too close to it, they do the same thing. Every network does the exact same thing and they hope for a different thing. The ratings are going to get better but it’s not. And that’s to no one’s fault. It’s just changing. The media landscape is changing and we’re all in bubbles. I’ll just put it this way. MSNBC, CNN, CBS, whatever. If you work for company A, you do things the way company A does it, right? You become part of that ecosystem. If you work for company B, you do that.
And so I believe that were folks who are in cable news or legacy media are all in their echo chambers. And they’re all doing things the way that it was done when it worked. That’s like folks in high school or college, and they get a haircut that works for them, and they never change that haircut because it’s great. It’s like football players, my glory days when I was a football player in high school, and they never sort of sit back and take an assessment of what is really going on. So I was forced to do it, and now I’m glad I was forced to do it because I see now that I was, if you want to be honest, in a dying industry, look, not anytime soon, but is moving in a different direction.
And I think that doesn’t bode well for the country and it doesn’t bode well for politics as well, because the Republicans have figured out how to manipulate that ecosystem and to adapt to that ecosystem. People want authenticity that I’ve noticed, but they don’t necessarily want that sort of veneer of traditional old school, everybody’s wearing a suit or a dress like they’re going to a cocktail party and a face full of makeup.
Jen Psaki: Listen, I would burn suits in a fire and never wear makeup again if left to my own devices.
Don Lemon: Honestly, you could do that. You have the personality, you have the looks. You could do that. And but not everybody can do that because people get used to, you know, Kara Swisher says, some folks get used to the black car bringing them to work and having three, four producers. We don’t do that in independent media. You don’t do it. You don’t need it. And I think in many ways, the trappings of those things, I think it’s good that some of the resources are going away because I think some of those trappings really separate the individual, whether it’s an anchor or reporter or whoever is delivering the information from their actual audience.
So my perspective has changed on the way, the operating system, but not necessarily who I am as a person or as someone who delivers the information. I’ve always been an authentic. Sometimes too authentic and that’s why maybe I’m not at legacy media anymore.
Jen Psaki: Sometimes you got a little too authentic there, Don.
Don Lemon: My boss used to say, I’m going to get you a sign that says, I’m on live television, watch what you say, because that’s when I felt more comfortable and at home is when I got on the anchor desk and it started, the camera started to roll, that’s when I felt like most comfortable, honestly, even in social situations is that I felt comfortable in front of the camera. So to answer your question. I deliver in the same way, but I don’t need all the trappings around it that really separated me from my audience. And I think the folks who are in legacy media, that’s what’s happening. And that’s why people aren’t tuning in.
And the second thing is that the viewer’s habits have changed.
Jen Psaki: How people consume information.
Don Lemon: Yeah, how people consume it because everybody, you know, I’m holding a phone now, everybody’s consuming on these. Young people don’t even have televisions. In the old days, you know, you used to be a horse and buggy and then you got cars, right? Gas cars. And now we’re in electric cars. It’s just changing, but it’s still a vehicle that gets you to where you’re going. It’s just that it has changed in the way that you do it. And I think that legacy media needs to adapt to that or, you know, it’s pretty soon, not right now, but they’re going to be forced to.
Jen Psaki: What do you think that evolution could look like? I mean, you’re not on a path to run a legacy media institution. I’m not asking you from that perspective.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I mean, one of the wake-up calls I had post-election was, does anything we do matter?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And who’s hearing it? And I mean, lots of wake up calls. I kind of strike the word authoritarianism from every script ever, because it’s like not how people talk, but there is this desire and appetite to better understand the country from people who are well-intentioned, from people like you, but it’s also hard to capture, right?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: You’ve did man on the street interviews.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: How do you capture where the country is in a way that is representative without being I’m in a diner in Ohio.
Don Lemon: Okay, two things and the second part, I’ll get to. It does matter what you say. And what you do, it matters, especially now when you look at what has been going on in the world. There’ve been wars, there’s ceasefires, and there’s an election. So I think that traditional media news still has a very influential role. although waning, and making a difference in the world, regardless of its politics or shaping policy or in the zeitgeist or whatever, still has a big influence, if only because that’s what people write about. But it’s not necessarily what the average person really cares about or is talking about, but people write about it so they are influenced by it. There are a certain group of people.
Jen Psaki: There’s like a ricochet effect.
Don Lemon: Thank you very much for that. And so it’s important in that way. And don’t get me wrong, I think what legacy media does is amazing. I think that they’re fantastic journalists. Every single day, my colleagues at CNN, the best. Your colleagues here at MSNBC are the best. They’re the best of the best. So I’m not disparaging legacy media because I’m not in it. You asked me my perspective. I think we all need to get closer to the people. So here’s the thing. When you do something in legacy media, like the fires, you cover the fire. The way I cover the fire is that I have my streamers and subscribers on with me. Many times they’re on the screen with me and I —
Jen Psaki: You’re doing it live.
Don Lemon: I’m doing it live and I’m talking to them, either their comments are on the screen or they’re on the screen. They have dialed in; they have a link and they click in. And I’m showing it, I have feeds. You can have your own feeds now with YouTube and whatever. But what happens in traditional things, like someone in the morning meeting says, you know you guys aren’t covering legacy media. And they says, okay, well, who are we going to send this all to? Who’s going to cover it? Which producer are we going to send? Which crew are we going to send? Blah, blah, blah. It’s too clunky. It’s a Buick in the age of electric car. An old gas powered Buick with not dual brakes and rack and pinion steering, but it’s not in the electric car age where everything is new and it has changed, it has too.
So you guys got to change. And so we’re much closer to the bone. We’re much closer to the meat. And then you go out to the neighborhoods and the cities and the towns and you talk to people. So I am a reporter and I’m the anchor. And so I get the pulse, not through someone saying, hey, let’s go to Bob Jones over in the thing. And then I sort of take Bob Jones’ reporter assessment, and then I give my spin to it. And then I turn to a desk full of people, and then it’s all sort of filtered through all of that.
It’s just me and the person who’s actually out there. And I’m talking to the people. And that’s how I think legacy media needs to become leaner and go to the folks and stop sitting around on shiny anchor desks, no offense, and stop talking to people in suits and neckties and dresses, cocktail dresses, and get out there and talk to the people wearing work vests who are working on the side of the road, construction workers, people who work in diners, people who work in cafes, people who work in the shops, and just start talking to people.
I walk up to people and I say, hey, can I ask you a question? Or what do you think about this? And before they even have a chance to think about it, they’ll go, whoa, hang on. They may be on the phone, they go, whoa, hold on, let me call you back. And so it’s much more honest and much more authentic.
Jen Psaki: Listen, I’m with you. I mean, one of my favorite things we do is we go out on the road with politicians and just like spend the day with them and go actually talk to people in communities. Can’t do that every day. There’s also —
Don Lemon: But you do that, but when you were on campaigns, you did it even more because you wanted to —
Jen Psaki: You —
Don Lemon: — why did you do it? Because you wanted to win those people over.
Jen Psaki: And because you wanted to have a better understanding —
Don Lemon: Of what they —
Jen Psaki: — of what conversations people are actually having.
Don Lemon: And a better understanding of what they need and what they want, not just winning them over.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. I mean, I also think, not that this is the job of any media outlet, there’s a benefit to anybody running for office at any level —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — for them to be a part of what change is that happens.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Because the problem is, is that everybody gets caricatured out there and people become a sliver of who they actually are for good or for bad.
Don Lemon: But you know what? Also the people who are there, I thought I was, but I wasn’t really reflective of the people —
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: — sitting there in my suit every night —
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: –like, I wasn’t a real representative of the people in a way that I think that they deserve. And now I feel that I am because people aren’t sitting around their living room at a dinner table in a cocktail dress or a suit. And why should they invite you into their home when they’re in their pajamas and you’re all dressed up like you’re going to church? You know, there’s this sort of veneer of even respectability or a way that we want things to be that they just aren’t anymore. And so if you want to reach the housewife or a mom who’s coming home to take care of her kids, why not meet her at her level, at that level?
Jen Psaki: Yeah, it’s interesting when you talk about this because it reminds me a little bit, because I worked for Obama, of course, for eight years. And when I started, we were the first White House to have the department we called New Media, which tells you everything you need to know.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: But it was kind of controversial at the time. You may remember this because he was doing stuff like —
Don Lemon: “Between Two Ferns.”
Jen Psaki: “Between Two Ferns.”
Don Lemon: And the lady with the bubbles or whatever in the tub.
Jen Psaki: Right, direct to GloZell.
Don Lemon: Yeah, GloZell. Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I don’t know where I remember that name.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: But in some ways, that’s the kind of stuff, not necessarily only that, which breaks through a veneer in a way —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — in a different way. Let me ask you, I mean, part of what I wanted to do this podcast for is to kind of explore what needs to change moving forward, which is the media. It’s also kind of how, even though you’re not a Democrat, you’re an independent, but you are an observer of how people communicate, politicians. I mean, how many people have you —
Don Lemon: I have no idea.
Jen Psaki: — thousands? Tens of thousands?
Don Lemon: People all the time stop me and say, hey, I was on your show. Remember you interviewed me? I’m like —
Jen Psaki: Remember me —
Don Lemon: — and I just go, oh, yeah.
Jen Psaki: That was a great interview. What can you say?
Don Lemon: I don’t remember.
Jen Psaki: Right, exactly.
Don Lemon: It’s actually a fun, interesting thing when you just sort of sit there and they cycle people in and out for you to interview.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: It’s an amazing experience to have had.
Jen Psaki: When you see people now, like if you’re in the airport or something, are they like, Don Lemon from CNN? Like, what did they say to you?
Don Lemon: The guy today when I got in the car to come here, he did not recognize me until I said, hey, it’s Don Lemon, you called me about, you know, from Inside Edition.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, is Don Lemon in my car?
Don Lemon: And he said, oh my God, it’s you. But they’re not expecting to see me that way. Now, if I got into that car in a suit and tie, hey, Don Lemon. If I walk down the street, if I’m going to a meeting, I have to wear a suit or something, everyone I get stopped, I get stopped. If I’m walking down in my every day, you know, people do stop me, but not nearly as often. And it’s the way you carry yourself.
If you are a celebrity, I’m not a celebrity in like a Hollywood sort of movie star celebrity, but people do recognize me and they will approach me even more than those people because I was in their homes all the time. But it’s all in the way you carry yourself. And that’s a lesson to me. If you carry yourself and you have a security guard and you’re getting into a black car and you whatever, then people, you know, they’re standoffish.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, they feel removed.
Don Lemon: But if you walk around, like you’re just a normal person, I walk around every day, walking my dogs, I take the subway, but it’s being approachable and real and authentic, that’s it. And you want people, I believe, to feel that you’re approachable.
Jen Psaki: There’s like a lot of lessons for politicians in this. And it’s funny because when people recognize me, it’s either because they’re like, Democratic political nerd who watched the briefing, which is not —
Don Lemon: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — which is not the majority of the country, or because I look vaguely familiar and they’re not sure why.
Don Lemon: Yeah, same.
Jen Psaki: And I have these very funny interactions with people in airports where they’re like, do I know you from somewhere? And it’s always awkward. I’m always like, I don’t know. Like, you know, or our kids in school or whatever? I had this guy at like 6:00 a.m. at a Starbucks, saddle up to me and say, I haven’t seen you since that night. And I was like, that was not me. You know? It’s like people I look vaguely familiar, but they’re not quite sure how. I also have people which tells you something, because I’ve been here. I mean, my show’s almost two years old. Say like —
Don Lemon: Oh, my gosh, that long.
Jen Psaki: I know.
Don Lemon: Wow! Congratulations.
Jen Psaki: Thank you. But say, oh my God, I remember you from the briefing, like, what have you been up to since then? You know, which is also funny too, because it tells you how people consume information. Or people will say, I seen you on TikTok a lot. Like, what else are you doing? You know? Because I do a lot of TikTok videos.
Don Lemon: It’s huge.
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Jen Psaki: We’re going to take a quick break here, and when we’re back, Don and I get into how to approach the media landscape we find ourselves in. That’s next.
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Jen Psaki: As we look back at the election, there’s been a lot of kind of hot takes, I’ll call them, on why Harris lost. I’m not going to ask you to be political pundit or analyst here. You can interview people who do that. But one of the things that people say is like, she disappeared. She didn’t do interviews. She was absent.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: She was for a period of time where she did crush it in that debate. But like looking back, should she have spent all that time? Do you think that was a real factor or that’s kind of oversimplifying?
Don Lemon: I think it’s oversimplifying a bit. Two, both can be true.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: Right? I think that you can always do more. We’re talking about Democratic politicians, right?
Jen Psaki: Yeah, I mean, because the other version of this, let me just give you another hot take people always throw out there, which is related, is like, if only she’d done Joe Rogan.
Don Lemon: Yeah. I don’t know if only she had done Joe Rogan specifically. I just think it’s a symbol of something larger, right?
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: Should she have done Joe Rogan? I say yes —
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: — I think if you want to. Would that have helped her? I’m not sure, it would have.
Jen Psaki: And the whole backstory —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — which we now know more, is like they tried to do Joe Rogan and they gave them a day and Joe Rogan’s team would only let them do it in Texas —
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: — and then they wouldn’t do it the day they were in Texas. That’s neither here nor there.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And Joe Rogan endorsed Trump, but it is yes, representative of something larger.
Don Lemon: Yes. So, I feel like I’m beating up on traditional media and I shouldn’t, and I don’t want to, but you’re asking, okay, so that’s why I’m answering these things. So I think that Democrats, especially Democratic politicians, are still enamored with the patina of legacy media and the influence there, and they’re not understanding where the culture is going as it relates to the media.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Don Lemon: Republicans understand that. I think even back in the day, the Obama folks understood that, but no one carried that torch forward in the party. Also, I think Democrats are sitting around being better than, I’m not going to go on that program because I’m better than that. I’m not going to go here because I’m better than that. That’s not true. You’re not. Because —
Jen Psaki: Well, what does that even mean? If they reach huge audiences, what does it mean you’re better than what? Reaching a huge audience?
Don Lemon: Yes, exactly. So look, right now, as we’re taping this, I have, what, maybe 360,000 subscribers. Right? That’s a lot of folks who not only, it’s not like they are casually watching every once in a while. They watch every single day because they get a notification and many of them are paying to watch. And so you cannot ignore that audience to be too good or too big for that audience. You have to go in many different places right now to reach people and you just can’t go on an MSNBC, a CBS, a CNN or, well, if you’re a Republican, go on Fox, huge audience because you’re preaching to the choir. Those folks are already going to vote for you. And the people that you need to engage and animate aren’t watching that.
The Republicans realized that. Donald Trump realized that. Where is he? He’s on Lex Friedman. College guys, bros are watching that. Aiden Ross is giving him a cyber truck and a Rolex watch on Aiden Ross’s feed, just an independent streamer. He is going on to Theo Von, who’s a comedian who has a podcast.
Jen Psaki: I mean, I listened to J.D. Vance’s interview with Theo Von —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — and what struck me was I was like, did I go to college with this person —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — Theo Von, who I probably disagree with on a million things —
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: — but he sounded like some frat guy I would have gone to college with.
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: But two, they talked about football for the first 10 or 15 minutes, and it wasn’t forced. It was like —
Don Lemon: They talked about life.
Jen Psaki: They talked about life. And one of the things I’ve been struck by or thought a lot about, and I wanted your thoughts on this, is like, Democrats, God bless them, are sometimes very ivory tower academic in what they feel are the parameters of what they can communicate about. It’s like they’re not allowed to, yes, they’ll have Beyonce at an event —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — but like they’re not allowed to talk about things that human beings care about —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — like sports and football and whatever it may be, whatever their real life things they do are. And it struck me so much because they talked about, I guess, J.D. Vance had just been to Lambeau Field, which is a very cool place.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And they talked about that for 10 minutes —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — and then they kind of load into, so you’re with Trump when he was shot. What was that like?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: It was like how a normal person would ask the question.
Don Lemon: If you’re sitting and having a beer, are you just sitting around chatting?
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: Democrats feel like they’re doing like some sort of policy paper on television or in an interview and that doesn’t work. I think that Democrats are too buttoned up and too afraid.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: And too nervous to be real people. And you know what? In some ways, I get it. They’re nervous about making a mistake because they’re the party, honestly, the party of cancellation. The Republican Party is not the party of cancellation. The Republican Party is honestly the party of many, many chances and understanding and knowing who your allies are and knowing who your strongest voices are and not casting them aside because they’re not perfect. The purity tests in the Democratic Party, it’s outrageous and it needs to be gotten rid of.
Jen Psaki: Well, the purity tests mean like, let’s make the umbrella smaller. And you’re like, no, no. You need a bigger umbrella in order to win elections.
Don Lemon: You also have to realize, look, I hate to agree with, let’s just say the hearings that happened a bit ago with the Hegseth’s of the world. When he says I’m not a perfect person, he’s right about that. Now, did that make him qualified to be the Secretary of Defense? That’s a whole another story. But by saying —
Jen Psaki: The answer is no.
Don Lemon: Yeah, yes. That’s why I said a whole another story. But the idea that I’m not a perfect person, no one is a perfect person. I had a very tough time, I’m going to be honest. I live in New York. I had a tough time filling in that marker for Kristin Gillibrand because of Al Franken.
Jen Psaki: Because of, yeah.
Don Lemon: Because of the posturing and the virtue signaling that was done around Al Franken.
Jen Psaki: Do you think she’d do that again today? I don’t think she would.
Don Lemon: I don’t think she would. And since then, I saw her during the hearings. I thought she did better. I was like, okay, this is better. But it was tough for me because why would you throw away one of your best allies and biggest voices and best communicators because of something that really was not that big a deal, that was forgivable. And I’m not saying it was right, but look at what Republicans do. Look at the people who were nominated and appointed. Not perfect, but guess what? They won and they’re winning. So if you’re going to expand your tent, if you are going to believe in America and democracy, which is supposed to be about reciprocity, and many different chances and forgiveness and all of those things, then you need to do that. And you need to stop having purity tests and stop thinking, well, I’m too good to go here. I can’t go there. This person’s audience isn’t big enough. They are enamored with a patina of legacy media and the patina of just legacy behavior.
Donald Trump has broken that mold. And that doesn’t mean that we need to be yelling at each other and rude and insulting each other. But we live in a very different time now. Remember, women can wear dresses above their ankle.
Jen Psaki: Thank God.
Don Lemon: And we were in a place where once —
Jen Psaki: Or pants.
Don Lemon: — right, or pants —
Jen Psaki: Thank God.
Don Lemon: — where you couldn’t do that. And I feel like we have evolved to a place where Democrats don’t realize they’re still wearing their skirts below the ankle.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, it’s funny. There’s so many things I’m thinking about as you’re talking about this, because I’ve also switched careers, right? And in the first couple of months of hosting a show, I remember, and I’m not going to name the person because we love all the people, but having a —
Don Lemon: I could probably figure it out later.
Jen Psaki: — somewhat prominent person and interviewing them about what’s happening in Congress and ending the interview and was like, we can’t have that person on ever again. Their talk and talking points. It’s like when you ask people questions like, what do you do about the fact that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy? And they’ll say, we are building bridges. It’s like, what?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: So it’s been this kind of a pivoting, but I also was thinking about how Pete Buttigieg, just was thinking about this as you were talking, years ago, he said about Chick-fil-A, I don’t like their politics, but I like their chicken, which is kind of how I feel, right?
Don Lemon: Same.
Jen Psaki: Their politics are terrible. We stopped there on every road trip because it’s good.
Don Lemon: Yeah, my sister is in the hospital not long ago, and I was in Louisiana, and my nieces wanted to stop to Chick-fil-A. And I was like, okay, I’m going to take you guys through this drive through, but don’t tell anybody because they’ll take away my gay card, right? And then so it ended there. But yes, you’re right about that. And here’s what people have to remember. Real people, you’re talking about the conversations that you have when you go on these podcasts and Theo Von.
Real people have real conversations. Real people say naughty words. Real people say cuss words. Real people don’t necessarily agree all the time. I don’t agree with my mom a lot of the times. We have it out, but I still love her. So they have to make room for that and not think that just because I disagree with you that I can’t be in the party or I can’t come on your program. You should invite people on your program who you disagree with.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: Right? Or someone who has criticized you. Bring them on and let’s talk about this openly. But people are afraid to do that. Just as they are afraid to, this isn’t appropriate for the morning. This is not. We can’t do it. People are eating their eggs and whatever, and they can’t have this kind of conversation in the morning. That’s bullshit. They can. One of the best conversations I saw on television recently was with “Morning Joe” and Michael Steele.
Jen Psaki: I was sitting right next to him.
Don Lemon: Yeah. Oh, that’s right, you were.
Jen Psaki: I was a part of that.
Don Lemon: That made a lot of people uncomfortable.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: But good. And guess what, as I was getting dressed, that was the only time I turned up the volume on “Morning Joe.” Did that make me think anything less of Mika and Joe? No. I thought it was a great conversation. Now, when I talked about it on my program, the right-wing media, the “Daily Mails” of the world, the “New York Post” of the world, they framed it as Don Lemon calls out Joe Scarborough and Mika, and that’s not what I did. I gave an assessment of what happened, and then I was critical of your former boss a bit because they were talking about civility at the funeral.
Jen Psaki: Oh, Biden or Obama?
Don Lemon: Obama. And I said, okay, so that part I did not like, but I did not criticize Mika and Joe at all, but that’s how they framed it. But still, it doesn’t matter. So I think that Michael Steele should go on “Morning Joe” more often, and Joe should have people on who disagree with him more often. But people are afraid, and I know, because I’ve been in these meetings and on these shows, we can’t have that person on because they did this in their past. Fox News isn’t thinking about that. Republicans aren’t thinking about that. And guess what? They are winning, and Democrats are not winning. Left-leaning media and even centrist media, not winning because everything has to be so pure and so calculated and so curated that it’s no longer relatable to the average American.
Jen Psaki: Well, you know, one of the biggest factors here is the social media aspect of this. I mean, I was sitting on that set. Michael Steele and Joe and Mika have known each other a long time.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Disagreeing on that set is totally fine.
Don Lemon: Good.
Jen Psaki: They have no issue —
Don Lemon: Good.
Jen Psaki: — with you disagreeing. They didn’t have an issue really with Michael Steele. Of course, it got a little heated in the moment, but nobody was like throwing things at them —
Don Lemon: It was great T.V.
Jen Psaki: — when the cameras went off. They disagree. So what?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: You disagree sometimes. You move forward. But what happens then is people on social media decide to make it this whole cat fight.
Don Lemon: Michael Steele calls them out. Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I’m on team Michael Steele. I’m on team Joe and Mika, whatever it may be.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And it’s like, that’s not —
Don Lemon: But you know what? Good for Joe and Mika for having the conversation and good for them that people are discussing it. I know they may not like it, but it’s all in the way that you handle it. And what I did, I didn’t worry about the criticism. I think that sometimes when you worry about it, you become defensive. And the best thing to do is not to become defensive and go, oh, I’m glad you’re discussing it and that’s it.
Jen Psaki: I’ve been joking. I should just do like a read through of the e-mails and the comments I get in response, which are things like die in a burning pit of hell with your children, you blank word, right?
Don Lemon: You should hear mine.
Jen Psaki: I mean, it is like, yeah, if you don’t get wrapped up in it —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — it’s quite freeing.
Don Lemon: It is.
Jen Psaki: And if you get wrapped up in it, I would have been like under a desk in the fetal position many years ago. I’m sure you would have been too.
Don Lemon: Yeah, but I don’t. I’ve gotten it so much from so many different demographics from my own people, meaning black people, from Democrats, from Republicans, from white people, from straight people, from gay people, that I don’t necessarily fit the mold, right? They’re like, what is this sort of living heterodoxy of everything? Wait, this does not compute. And so I’ve gotten it for a while, but I think it’s great when people disagree with me and when something is like percolating in the news and it’s a controversy. What people don’t realize most is like tomorrow it’ll be gone.
Jen Psaki: And it’s healthy.
Don Lemon: And it’s healthy and you move on. By the way, you were talking about, you know, people recognizing you or whatever. I have hate viewers and love viewers. And the folks who hate you, haters are super fans.
Jen Psaki: Oh, I also have hate viewers and love viewers.
Don Lemon: So invite them in, come on in.
Jen Psaki: Well, no, in hate viewers who are wearing MAGA hats and they want to take pictures in the airport.
Don Lemon: Yes.
Jen Psaki: And you’re like, okay.
Don Lemon: Isn’t that crazy?
Jen Psaki: It’s like, I mean —
Don Lemon: So, all of these dudes that are like, oh, what’d you do with the interview with Elon and why are you talking about my president that way? I go to a wedding or I go to a bar and they’re all, they start having a cocktail. Hey, you’re Don Lemon, yeah. Can I have a picture with you? Can I buy you a beer? And then Tim is like, wait a minute, what’s going on with all these guys?
Jen Psaki: Tim, your husband. Yeah.
Don Lemon: Yeah, and I’m like, well, I don’t know —
Jen Psaki: Tim’s like, let me —
Don Lemon: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — Tim’s like let’s like not have an open beer. Like you can take a picture.
Don Lemon: And then they won’t go away because they want to talk to you all night. They’re the super fans.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: And that’s good thing.
Jen Psaki: I always love when people come up to me and they say, I disagree with you completely on everything.
Don Lemon: But I love watching you.
Jen Psaki: But yeah, right?
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: But like or something like that I get. So it’s just like a funny —
Don Lemon: But you should remember that because then you have the people who are supposed to be your people and they disagree with you and then they cancel you.
Jen Psaki: Oh, well-
Don Lemon: Those folks don’t do that.
Jen Psaki: Well —
Don Lemon: So that’s a lesson in that.
Jen Psaki: No, no, no. I mean, I will say, because I am a believer in being honest and authentic at all times, whenever you can. And I was quite honest about what I was hearing from people about how they felt about Joe Biden’s path forward this summer. And I got blue MAGA.
Don Lemon: Pilloried.
Jen Psaki: Right.
Don Lemon: You got pilloried.
Jen Psaki: Still to this day. But you want to say to people, listen, I’ve seen Joe Biden since then. He’s a tough cookie. He’s been in public for like —
Don Lemon: Right. Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — I love the man, right?
Jen Psaki: It doesn’t mean that you can’t state what is actually happening in the world because if you don’t do that it’s inauthentic to the people who are watching your show.
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: And that’s a responsibility. But still to this day, it’s like, guys, I think you have a bigger issue.
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Next up, I’ll talk with Don about the spread of disinformation on social media, especially after fact checking is no longer a part of many platforms. More with Don Lemon in a moment.
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Jen Psaki: Let me ask you about social media because one of the things that is striking to me is that the standard at which even local news, and you know this, you said what you thought on television. You’re not a party guy, but like you said, always what you thought. But it had to be fact. You had a whole standards department that goes through legal review on things as we do here.
Don Lemon: Yep.
Jen Psaki: Fox News has that too. They obviously have had a fair amount of trouble. They had to pay a huge amount of money because of things they said on air around the election a couple of years ago. But all of these platforms, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, they’re held to no standard at all.
Don Lemon: No standards.
Jen Psaki: And I just wanted to ask you, because you’ve been through as a straight talker who says things that maybe sometimes you shouldn’t say on air, you’ve been held to standards. What does it mean that the fact checking goes away?
Don Lemon: I don’t like the fact checking going away. That means that conspiracy theories abound.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: That means that you can insult people because of their sexuality, because of their gender, because of their race, because of their ethnicity, because they may be a person who has special needs that you can insult people and do that. And also that you can be racist and bigoted and all of those things. And it’s okay if enough people in the community, what do they call it? The community —
Jen Psaki: Community notes.
Don Lemon: — notes. If enough people in the community notes agree that, okay, this is okay. And community notes, those aren’t facts. And so we live in a time now more than ever where we need fact checkers. We need people to be factual, especially during the pandemic. We needed people to be factual. Well, we should have learned from the pandemic. If you want me to say that, I’ll tell you why we should.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: You want me to tell you now?
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: We should have gotten an idea of where this streamer digital media was going during the pandemic, because you had so many people listening to the Rogan’s of the world. And to athletes who were listening to that and they were saying, I’m not going to get the jab, I’m not going to do those things, we should have had an idea about the influence of that medium.
Jen Psaki: I know. I wonder looking back, it’s interesting.
Don Lemon: That was an indicator.
Jen Psaki: And it’s like, maybe Fauci should have gone on Joe Rogan.
Don Lemon: That’s what I’m saying.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: Right.
Jen Psaki: No, this is, I’m a believer into diving into the fact. I mean, I did more Fox News than any other —
Don Lemon: Yes.
Jen Psaki: — we had less legacy media, but when I was the press secretary, and it does make you think, it’s like saying they’re bad, look at what they’re doing, it’s actually not breaking through to communicate the people that are listening to those programs.
Don Lemon: Right. And they’re thinking, well, I don’t want to go on there because I don’t want to give them an audience. Well, they already have an audience.
Jen Psaki: Great. They don’t —
Don Lemon: So you may as well go on and maybe you can change some minds, maybe you won’t. But then again, five days later, who will care if you went on there, right? So back to the fact checkers.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: I believe fact checking is important. I believe in content moderation and not censorship. There’s a difference between content moderation and censorship.
Jen Psaki: What’s the difference? You’re a defender of free speech. Where is the line drawn?
Don Lemon: I think it should be facts. That’s the problem. I think that if you put something online in one of those sites and you know that it is not factual, you should be able to be held to account if it’s not factual, even if you’re an average citizen, right? And I think the average citizen held to account is the terms of services. They need to enforce them and people need to follow them. And that doesn’t often happen. It doesn’t happen a lot, I should say. So the facts, that should be the part between censorship and moderation.
Jen Psaki: All right, Don, you’re a big observer of Elon Musk is one way diplomatically I could say it. Why do you think he’s doing what he’s doing?
Don Lemon: I got to tell you, honestly, I don’t know. I don’t know, I don’t understand it. I don’t understand what he’s doing, and I don’t understand what Mark Zuckerberg is doing. Obviously, they don’t need the money. So I really don’t know, Jen. Why do you think that he’s doing what he’s doing?
Jen Psaki: I think it’s ultimately about, they don’t need the money, but people who have a lot of money always feel like they need more money. We know this, right? Or need more power, or need more expansion of their global domination, right? So when I listen to what they say and, you know, I listened to a Mark Andreessen interview the other day.
Don Lemon: Oh boy.
Jen Psaki: Well, it’s interesting. This is the other thing I would tell people. You got to listen to what people are saying to help understand it.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And it feels to me like they’re using free speech, which is an important thing as a broad shield for being able to support a guy who they may disagree with on many, many, many issues, but they know is going to help their financial interests —
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — and justify it to themselves that they have no responsibility. That’s my take.
Don Lemon: So look, again, you asked me about Musk. I don’t know why he’s doing what he’s doing, but I’ll tell you about just in general, as you talked about wealthy people always want to be famous. Usually, if they don’t have fame and they like fame, I know it.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, they’re looking for something else, right?
Don Lemon: I know a lot of —
Jen Psaki: Power, more money. Yeah.
Don Lemon: — wealthy people, yeah, and more influence. I think Mark Zuckerberg is just kind of going along with the crowd, maybe.
Jen Psaki: Like he’s following. Or this is one theory. They look at Musk, he’s Trump’s buddy. Maybe he’s going to have a lot of power. Maybe he’s going to have access. Maybe they’ll have a falling out. Zuckerberg, all of these tech industrial complex bros are just gonna follow the journey here?
Don Lemon: Ah, again, I’ve been trying to figure that out. And honestly, I really don’t know. Maybe just at the end of the day, that’s just who they are. Maybe they just —
Jen Psaki: There apparently was an image consultant involved in what Mark Zuckerberg recently was wearing, which is something I haven’t wrapped my head around fully. In addition to the things I’m much more concerned about but —
Don Lemon: The folks on my channel called him Screech. They were like, what is Screech doing?
Jen Psaki: What is happening there? Okay, before I let you go, you did the Nelk Boys, right?
Don Lemon: I did. I did the Nelk Boys. I did another conservative podcast. I get invited on conservative podcasts all the time. Now, here’s the thing. At some point, I’ll probably do more. I don’t go on because inevitably they’re just going to sort of rail at one thing, like just sort of, you know, hone in on one thing. I would go on more often if they didn’t attack me personally and yeah, we can actually have —
Jen Psaki: What do they attack you personally about?
Don Lemon: They attack me personally about my sexuality or —
Jen Psaki: When you’re on the podcast?
Don Lemon: Yeah. And I hear them when I’m not on the podcast, right?
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: I’ll watch sometimes conservative podcasts because I want to know what’s going on.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: And something will come up and I’ll hear my name and I go, oh boy. And then someone will make like a funny, and I’m like, well, I actually don’t talk like that. Or they’ll say something about me or something that has happened to me or someone who has said that I’ve done something or something that was written about me. And they’re completely wrong. And I’ve like, I want to correct them. And the only way that I correct them is to go into the lion’s den, but that would mean personal attacks and I just don’t because if you attack me personally, I’m going to attack you right back.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: I’m going to meet you where you are. That is my energy going into 2025. My energy is Malcolm X.
Jen Psaki: Oh.
Don Lemon: No, it is.
Jen Psaki: Gitty up for 2025.
Don Lemon: That’s my energy, is to wherever you are, I love Michelle Obama, but when they go low, we go high. No, when you go low, I’m going to go low with you.
Jen Psaki: She might say something different nowadays. I’ve found that actually people like Pete Buttigieg, they kind of like the fight.
Don Lemon: Yeah, I do too. I’m going to start going back. But for a while I was just like, I needed to protect my sanity.
Jen Psaki: So because we’ve been talking about how Democrats need to do more stuff like the Nelk Boys or Joe Rogan or Theo Von, other things beyond that.
Don Lemon: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: That’s just a shorthand. Not everybody can pull that off, is a reality. Not everybody can do that stuff.
Don Lemon: But it doesn’t matter.
Jen Psaki: Well, I guess who do you think can do it?
Don Lemon: I think a lot of folks could do it if they actually went into it and tried. You get better with practice and you get better when you try. And so here’s what I will say. Democrats, stop with the purity test, stop with the I’m better than that, or I’m not going to give that whatever I’m not, how dare they, whatever I’m not going to do that. Stop canceling people and go and do it because there’s nothing that you can do that’s worse than 34 criminal counts, being liable for sexual abuse, being charged and found guilty of falsifying business records, trying to overturn an election, inciting an insurrection, cheating on wives. There’s nothing that you can do that’s worse than that.
And here’s the thing, people want authenticity, or at least the feel or the look of authenticity. The people in the Democratic Party who are the most authentic, who stand out the most, who people like the most. Think about it, some people voted for AOC and Donald Trump on the same ticket, right? Because they are authentic and they like that they say whatever they want and they’re not too holier than thou and they’re not stuck up. AOC says bad words on social media or in an interview because that’s what real people do.
And so Democrats need to start elevating people in their party like that. And as much as I love what’s his name, Connelly, and who, you know, wanted to be —
Jen Psaki: Jerry Connelly?
Don Lemon: Jerry Connelly.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: As much as I like him. —
Jen Psaki: I was literally like, who are you talking about right now?
Don Lemon: Who exactly, that’s the point.
Jen Psaki: No, that was a missed opportunity. I’ve said this. This a missed opportunity that they didn’t do that.
Don Lemon: Yeah, so, but AOC, Jasmine Crockett. Look, Jasmine Crockett calls someone beach blonde, bad-built, butch body, and says naughty things, and meets them with their own energy. After she did that, look at how much money she raised. Look at how many more fans that she got. Probably more people will vote for her.
Jen Psaki: Okay, this is the last question I’ll ask you, but beyond like who’s going to like elevate themselves, get more followers, and I think —
Don Lemon: Also, what other young man in the party can you point out but Pete Buttigieg?
Jen Psaki: I think Maxwell Frost is actually quite good.
Don Lemon: Maxwell Frost, absolutely, but they need more of that to reach. They need to reach young men.
Jen Psaki: So, again, you’re not a politician, you’re not a registered party guy, but you’re an observer of who’s good at this and who can like do this effectively. We’ve said AOC, we’ve said Pete Buttigieg. Who else —
Don Lemon: Jasmine Crockett, Pete Buttigieg.
Jen Psaki: Jasmine Crockett. Who else?
Don Lemon: Maxwell Frost, as you said. Elissa Slotkin.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: But it’s mostly younger women who can do it.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: But I can’t think of many other people who would be really, really great at it. Again, unless they practice, but they need to start elevating young voices, but there’s no one else that I really see. Every time I see the young folks in Congress and they are at a hearing and I’m like, yes, they’re speaking up, that’s the energy, whatever. And then I see the other guys and I’m like, okay, that’s politics as usual.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Don Lemon: We need to respect our senior folks and it’s like seniority and that’s all true. But you also have to start creating a bench and elevating people who really represent what’s going on in our society right now.
Jen Psaki: Don Lemon, I love talking to you.
Don Lemon: You always get it.
Jen Psaki: Thank you.
Don Lemon: So, thank you so much for that.
Jen Psaki: You too.
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Jen Psaki: Thanks for listening to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.” We’ll be back next Monday with new episodes. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad-free. As a subscriber, you’ll also get exclusive bonus content. The senior producer for “The Blueprint” is Margaret Menefee, and our producer is Vicki Vergolina. John Ball is our associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner, and we get additional support from McKenna Roberts and Matt Rivera. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau, Mark Yoshizumi, and Bob Mallory. And Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Alex Lupica is the executive producer of “Inside with Jen Psaki,” and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio. I’m your host, Jen Psaki. Search for “The Blueprint” wherever you get podcasts and follow the series.