Transcript
Into America
Blue Skies, Black Wings
Trymaine Lee: As a little kid in South Jersey, I remember climbing into my Uncle Gary’s little airplane. It had maybe four or five seats. And the higher we flew, the smaller the world down there became. My family’s neighborhood, the deli, the candy store, the school, the post office, even the people, all miniaturized to the size of M&Ms.
But up in the sky, that wide open world was bigger than anything my 6-year-old mind could have imagined. Up there, the possibilities, the dreams, were infinite. We were free. All these years later, I still hold on to those feelings of freedom and wonder that I had up there with him. I mean, if we could fly, anything and everything else was in reach.
When I was young, I just thought it was cool that my Uncle Gary could fly a plane. But it was also kind of normal. It’s what he did. He was just my uncle with an airplane. It’s not until I was much older that I realized my uncle was part of a long tradition of African American pilots, one full of discrimination and determination.
During the birth of aviation in the early 20th century, Black people were kept out of planes in this country. In response, aspiring Black pilots traveled to Europe. There’s Eugene Jacques Bullard who flew for the French in World War I and Bessie Coleman, who made history as the first Black female pilot when she received her license in France in 1921.
Overtime, Black aviators started their own flight schools and airports in this country and worked against the forces of racism and sexism to train the next generation of Black pilots. But up until World War II, African Americans were barred from serving as pilots in the U.S. military and operating planes out of white-owned airfields which kept them out of the lucrative airline industry.
Through years of fierce advocacy, the laws at home eventually changed paving the way for more Black pilots to earn their wings. But even today, less than 2 percent of pilots are Black. For years, high tuition costs for aviation school and access to flight time have been prohibited for many Black people trying to get into the field. And according to some, the industry has struggled to recruit talent of color. They say it’s just never been a priority.
But amid one of the worst pilot shortages of our time, that just might be changing.
Archival Recording: Airlines are again struggling with staffing and schedules.
Archival Recording: We don’t have the pilots that we need to fly a full regional schedule.
Archival Recording: All airlines are scrambling to fill their cockpits. United plans to hire 10,000 pilots over the next eight years. Half of them graduates of its new academy. United says 50 percent of its students will be women or minorities.
Lee: This past August, American Airlines honored Bessie Coleman’s legacy by crewing a flight from Dallas to Phoenix entirely with Black women, from the captain and first officer, to the flight attendants to the technicians and ground crew.
Archival Recording: So, today, I’m beyond thrilled to be a part of the crew where we’re inspiring young girls, young girls of color, to see the various roles that these women play in every aspect to make this flight possible.
Archival Recording: I’ve been a flight attendant for 55 years. I am blown away. Yes, this is the first time I’ve been on an all-black women’s crew. And it makes me feel so good.
Lee: But flights like these are rare indeed. And Black pilots still face steep barriers to achieving their dreams of flight.
Archival Recording: The first thing you immediately notice is the cost. I mean, flight training is not cheap. It’s very expensive and that becomes intimidating. But foremost, you hardly see anyone who looks like you at the flight school. You know, sometimes you’re the only one there and that could be difficult.
Lee: Now, major airlines are partnering with HBCUs in an effort to fill their cockpits, in the process. diversifying a profession that is still overwhelmingly white and male.
I’m Trymaine Lee and this is Into America. Today, during this busy holiday travel season, we explore the long tradition of Black pilots and how under the mentorship pioneers, a new generation of African Americans is taking to the sky.
Lee: Hi, good brother. Thank you so much for joining us.
Tremaine Johnson: Morning. Morning. How you doing?
Lee: I’m good, man. You know, this is the first time I’ve ever interviewed another Tremaine, man. So, I’m excited about that. Besides hearing your stories, two Tremaine’s in one place, man. That’s a lot of Tremaine action right there.
Johnson: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Lee: Tremaine Johnson is a student at Florida Memorial University in Miami Gardens.
Johnson: The one and only HBCU down in South Florida.
Lee: As a teenager, Tremaine thought he might want to work in the auto industry.
Johnson: In high school, I was curious about cars and boats because down here in South Florida, that’s what it’s mainly, fast cars and boats on the water, so I wanted to manufacture them and, like, let’s say Lexus or Rolls Royce, I want to be in the building – building the car instead of selling them. So, that’s what I originally wanted to do.
Lee: In 2019, Tremaine started college at Florida Memorial and decided to major in aviation management and aeronautical science with a concentration in air traffic control. Then, on a trip to Ohio, he flew in an airplane for the very first time.
Johnson: So, as we took off, I saw the whole Miami from a different point of view not knowing that the world is bigger than what we think it is. So, I saw the water, the houses get smaller, and it was just a great feeling.
Lee: And after that flight, he kept thinking about the feeling he got when he saw the world from 30,000 feet. So, Tremaine decided to leave air traffic control on the ground and become a pilot.
This summer, he took the first step, spending $250 on an instructional flight where he got to take the stick of a small Cessna in the skies over Miami.
Johnson: So, that first time I got in a cockpit, I was really shook because, you know, I’m used to being in the passenger seat, laid back, but then, you know, I’m in a cockpit and I’m seeing instruments and this, that, and avionics. I’m like, woah, what is this, you know?
And I got my certified instructor with me on the side, and he was telling me and teaching me things as we climbed up in the air. So, with like a Cessna, when you climb up in the air, it’d be really bumpy. So, I was like, oh what I got myself into, man. It was just real nerve-wracking until we got in a straight-level flight.
And, you know, it was smooth sailing. And then I saw the whole Miami. I went down all the way to Bal Harbour, Key Biscayne, all the way around the beach area. Water was so nice and blue then he let me climb and descend. It was just amazing.
I was, like, okay. This is the feeling of flying an airplane which is, like, you know, how you drive fast in a car and the wheel started shaking, it’s kind of like that but it’s in the air. It felt really, you know, different, and it was just, man, it was mind-blowing.
Lee: Now that you’re on this path, have you met other black pilots? Have they given you any inspiration and words of advice?
Johnson: Yes. So, Captain Barrington Irving. He was the youngest African American to fly around the world at age of 23. He’s my mentor. So, he gave me word of advice and he want me to be with him and I’m learning everything from him. I got to do it, man. I got to. It ain’t no worries about it.
Lee: Would you mind just introducing yourself for us?
Barrington Irving: So, my name is Captain Barrington Irving. I’m a founder of the Flying Classroom curriculum. We work with over 800 schools across the country. But some folks know me for Guinness World Record I set being the youngest person ever and the first Black man to fly solo around the world.
Lee: Captain Barrington Irving was born in Jamaica and moved to Miami when he was six years old. In high school, his life revolved around football. He was a star athlete with scholarship offers on the table. But then, when he was 15 years old, a chance encounter changed the course of his life.
Irving: I had no one in my family with an aviation background and my only experience flying was to fly from Jamaica to Miami, Florida. And I always thought it was something interesting to fly or be an astronaut but never thought it was attainable, just never thought it was attainable. I thought you’d literally had to be a rocket scientist to do it.
And it didn’t become a reality for me until I had a random chance meeting with a Black pilot who I saw stepping out of a nice luxurious truck, dressed in a suit, so I had no clue what the suit represented. He had a nice watch on and I’m just staring at him saying, man, this brother looks like he makes a ton of money.
And he saw that I was staring at him, so he walked in the store, and he approached me and he said to me, hey, son, you ever thought about becoming a pilot? First words out of my mouth, I said, sir, I don’t think I’m smart enough to fly an aircraft. Then I asked him one pivotal question and that question was, how much money do you make?
Lee: The right question.
Irving: Absolutely the right question. And he leaned over and what he whispered to me, all I could do is look up at him and it was as if the heavens were behind him and I just mumbled out of my mouth, that’s like, legally? And he’s like, yeah, it’s a real job. This is what I do. And the rest was history, man.
Lee: The sharp-looking pilot in his flight suit was Captain Gary Robinson. Captain Robinson took a young Barrington under his wing. And once a month, for 30 minutes, no matter where he was in the world, he would call Barrington and talk to him about life and about what it would take for him to become a pilot.
Irving: He was wise and understanding. I could care less about how much math and science I had to learn. What I really cared about was, okay, if I went after this career, what would my quality of life look like, right? How could I make it out to the hood essentially and he does such a great job in not only painting the picture but also making it attainable because I’ll be honest, if I didn’t have him, I’m not sure if I would have pursued aviation in the way I did.
Lee: But to become a pilot, Barrington would need to get a license and that wasn’t going to be easy.
Irving: The first thing you immediately notice is the cost. I mean flight training is not cheap. It’s very expensive. And that becomes intimidating. But foremost, you hardly see anyone who looks like you at the flight school, you know, sometimes you’re the only one there, you know. And —
Lee: Wow.
Johnson: That could be difficult.
Lee: Barrington’s mentor, Captain Robinson, was always there to help him thorough some of those tough moments and he also paid for some of Barrington’s initial classes. But Barrington also gets inspiration from some real-life heroes.
Irving: The Tuskegee Airmen, like, I heard about them in school. But I didn’t really know their story until after I graduated and really started to read up on them and understand the significance of what they did, when they did it, and how it helped to transform society.
Lee: The Tuskegee Airmen were the country’s first Black military aviators. This was during World War II. When Jim Crow and segregation prescribed the limits of Black American life. And years before the U.S. military was integrated by Executive Order.
In 1939, after Black pilots had been pushing to join the military for decades, Congress gave money to Tuskegee University, an HBCU in Alabama, to train pilots for the war.
The all-Black 99th Fighter Squadron was deployed to North Africa in 1943 and became legends for their valor in battle. Nicknamed the Red Tails for the distinctive crimson markings on their planes, they ended the war with one of the lowest loss rates for escorting bombers on their runs. Over the course of the war, Tuskegee would go on to send a total of four squadrons overseas.
Irving: I actually got a chance to meet some of the Tuskegee airmen to speak with them and hear their stories and real quickly, you realize, you know, your story is cupcakes compared to what they went through.
Lee: Throughout World War II, the pilots of the Tuskegee Airmen endured years of discriminatory policies, subpar training facilities and hostile white commanding officers. Years before Reverend King popularized the tactic, they used nonviolent civil disobedience to fight back.
But despite their efforts during their service, when these men got back to the states, they were barred from using the skills they had trained so hard to gain.
Irving: The thing that struck me the most is they fought so hard for this country. They had a chance to fly during World War II. Like, flying is something that you love, man. You love that like marriage itself. And the part that hit me with a lot of these guys, for a lot of them, their dreams of flying ended right after the war.
Lee: Wow.
Irving: That was it. That was it for them. They went, they saved lives, they came back to this country, the very thing that they love so much, they could never do again because they couldn’t get a job.
Lee: But from the time of the Tuskegee Airmen through Tremaine Johnson at Florida Memorial University, HBCUs have provided a safe haven for Black pilots to train. Barrington also went to FMU.
Irving: It was significant to be a student out of HBCU, studying in aviation because to your left and to your right, you can see folks that look like you. And that’s encouraging.
Lee: Barrington says that he learned a lot more than just how to fly a plane at flight school. The training itself gave him skills that is applied to all areas of his life.
Irving: When you’re involved in a flight training program, it requires you to – if you’re immature, you got to be mature. If you are lazy, you got to have good work ethic. You’re going to grow up real quickly because you’re flying a plane. And if you don’t, you’re going to harm yourself or possibly kill yourself.
Lee: Barrington got his pilot’s license when he was just 19 years old. Once he had that, his mentor, Captain Robinson, told him that it was time to start giving back.
Irving: I’m like, what is this dude talking about? I don’t have any money to give, what could I possibly give someone. And he taught me the value of sharing my time, sharing my knowledge, sharing resources, whatever I can, just share it.
So, it made me think. And then I was like, well, what if I flew around the world and just inspire a bunch of students? Just inspire them.
Lee: A solo flight around the world, it was kind of a wild and crazy idea. the trip is around 24,600 miles and for someone without a fancy plane, it can take months. At that time, no Black man had ever accomplished the feat.
But there were a few problems. For one, Barrington didn’t even have a plane.
Irving: Of course, you want to fly around the world, the first thing you need is a plane. Couldn’t get anyone to rent me a plane, lease me one, let me borrow one. Nothing. Now, I’ll never forget, I sat down on my bedroom floor frustrated, and I then had this lightbulb moment and I said to myself, I said, hold on, when people steal cars, what do they do with them?
And I’m like, well, they bring them into my neighborhood, they strip all the parts of the vehicle and illegally sell it. So, I said to myself, well, if different people make different parts of a car, I wonder if different people make different parts of a plane. Sure enough, that was the case. I studied 42 different companies, went after them one by one.
I said, before they slammed the door on me, I said no, no, no, no, I’m not asking you for any money. I’m simply asking you to give me the one part you make and don’t worry about it, I’ll get the next part from the next manufacturer. Everybody thought it was a long shot. They all say yes, sure. And some genuinely did believe in me and I ended up piecing that airplane together from the engine to the cockpit system, propeller, list goes on and on and on. And never looked back.
Lee: All told, Barrington says that it took him more than three years to get his plane built and to prepare for his trip. By then, he was 23 years old, still an undergrad at FMU. When he was finally ready to go, on March 23rd, 2007, he was nervous.
Irving: I’ll never forget when I departed to fly around the world because it was such a significant moment for me. I was not sure if I would survive. I was not sure if I would make it back.
Lee: But there was a surprise waiting for him at the airport in Miami. There’s literally about 5,000 students or so at the airport with banners and signs saying “Go, Barrington, Go” and the most hilarious part throughout all of it, I only had $30 in my pocket. I kid you not. I had three $10 bills in my pocket. That’s all I have.
I didn’t even have enough money to put gas in my airplane at the first stop. And folks were so inspired, they started raising money right there on the spot. I remember all those faces during the trip when there were times where I really felt like giving up, there were times where I was like, you know what? I can’t do this. I can’t get this done plenty of times like that and those faces, till this day, come back to me of, like, it was no longer just a fun thing to do an inspiring thing to do. I felt like I was obligated, and I had a real responsibility around it.
Lee: There were plenty of times on the trip when Barrington returned to that moment for strength to get through the journey.
Irving: Oh, man. Let’s see. Tremendous fatigue flying across the North Atlantic. That was – I flew from New Findland, Canada, to the Azores and I was extremely tired, and I dozed off. I fell asleep. I’m the only person in the plane. I woke up and instead of the plane being like this, it was like this.
Lee: Barrington tips his hand over showing how the plane was almost on its side.
Irving: Right? Just waiting to just tip on the edge. And that was one challenge. Another challenge was having to deal with the sandstorm, flying through a sandstorm over Saudi Arabia, dealing with monsoons in Asia, and you know, gosh, dealing with severe icing in the North Pacific.
I had no deicing. You have ice this thick on your wings and the airspeed is coming down and flying through crazy turbulence. And the airline pilots, radioing down to you, asking for your parents’ name and phone number, we’ll let them know that we spoke to you.
I mean, it was just – there were some places that were very apprehensive. You know, you land with people pointing AK-47s at you and you land, and you turn off your engine and you put your hands up and, I’m like, man, I’m getting held up.
Lee: It’s crazy.
Irving: After flying around the world, the way I did, I’d never do it that way again. It was just chaos.
Lee: Man, you say it like you’re almost surprised you made it. Like —
Irving: I am surprised I made it. I mean, I flew through some stuff I’ll never fly through again.
Lee: But finally, 97 days after he took off from Miami, Barrington landed in New York City to crowds and two world records. At the time, he was the youngest person to fly around the world and the first Black man.
Irving: I learned so much about human will. I learned so much about grit, whatever it takes. You just figure it out and you know you have to do something.
But I also learned about society, you know. I would’ve never imagined my flight would have inspired so many people especially young people and that knowledge, just being absorbed into seeing the world. I’ve just been unstoppable ever since, man.
And it’s because I saw possibilities in different realms on different continents. You know, just amazing.
Lee: When we come back, we speak to Barrington Irving’s mentor, and the man with the nice suit, Captain Gary Robinson. And we discuss the challenges that still face Black pilots getting into the aviation industry today. That’s in a minute. Stick with us.
Gary Robinson is a Boeing 777 captain. Most folks just call him Captain Rob He’s been a pilot for more than 40 years with three of those decades spent flying for United Airlines. Like Barrington Irving, Captain Robinson was born in Jamaica. And from a young age, he knew he wanted to fly.
Gary Robinson: My mom brought my siblings and I, my two sisters and I, out to the United States when I was five years old and I got, as we called, the bug. It bit me and bit me real good. I told my mother; I want to be a pilot and I wanted nothing else from that point on. I slept, ate, breathe, dreamt about, you know, played, flying.
Lee: Captain Robinson says that he grew up poor but that didn’t stop him from pursuing his dreams.
Robinson: So, it was in high school when I met this young man who – he was actually a friend of mine already, but we met after school and we’ve just gotten our driver’s licenses and I asked him after school, hey, where are you going? He said, well, I’m going to take my flying lesson. And I said, you can’t take a flying lesson, you’re too young. He said, no, I’ve taken three already. I’m going for my next one. I said, hold on, I’m going with you. And so, I went down the local airport with him, I had a little job, and one paycheck at a time, one lesson a time, started flying.
Lee: When Captain Robinson started flying, they were even fewer Black pilots than they are today, and it could be rough.
Irving: I first got in the industry back in the late ’80s and early ’90s. It was – we’re saying less than 2 percent now, which is the accurate number, but it was less than a half a percent, if I remember at that point. We’re just a handful of black pilots.
There were – there were — the racism I experienced was mostly very subtle. Very difficult to put a finger on when I was coming up. But it was mostly – I would say most behind my back. Back then, typically, I worked for three airlines before United, and typically, I was the first and only black pilot at that company.
In the cockpit, they would say things about this race of people, hey, that Mexican or that so and so or this, you know, this woman or – and I say, hey, listen, I’d even say to him, if you’re saying that about so and so to me when they’re not around, what are you saying about me when I’m not around?
Lee: But sometimes, Captain Robinson found camaraderie in unexpected places like when you applied for a job with a small airline on the East Coast.
Robinson: One of the airlines I got hired with, they interviewed me and a bunch of good ol’ country boys and they – I was, sitting in the interview room with the captain and the human resources person, two captains, chief pilot and director of operations.
The director of operations asked me, he says, so how you going to feel flying with a bunch of rednecks from the South? I said, well, sir, if you don’t mind flying with a brother from the hood, it’ll work for me. And so, they hired me. And it was great. It was great. They treated me well and it was a great opportunity for me to expose them to what they didn’t know as a Black man, to show them the quality of black people.
Lee: Captain Robinson started mentoring a young Barrington Irving in the late 1990s.
Robinson: One of the things I asked Barrington at the time was, have you ever thought about flying. He says, no sir, I’m not smart enough to fly. I said, well, what kind of grades do you have? He said, I get straight A’s. I said, do you know I never got a straight A in my life?
So, he said I get straight A’s. I said, listen, if you see me doing it, you can do it too. You can do it too. It’s just a matter of do you have the desire.
Lee: Captain Robinson continues to serve as a mentor to Barrington and other aspiring pilots especially when talking to young people, he wants to ensure that they don’t allow others to place limitations on their dreams.
Robinson: I had a white football coach in high school who, when he found out that I was going to become an airline pilot, he saw me in the hallway and he said, tenth grade, he said, Robinson, I said, yeah, coach? He said, airline pilot, huh? I said, yes, coach. He said, yeah, right. And walked off.
So, I used that to encourage the kids coming up. There are going to be many who will laugh at you, who will discourage you, try to, what that coach did for me, unbeknownst to him, was he put fuel on my fire. Find what you’re passionate about but don’t let anyone discourage you from accomplishing what it is you want to accomplish particularly if it’s becoming an airline pilot. You can do it. And the opportunities are there. They’re far greater than what they were for me and those who came in my generation and before.
Lee: In recent years, several major airlines have been teaming up with HBCUs to recruit talent. Southwest Airlines has partnered with Texas Southern University through the destination 225 cadet pathway. Delta has Propel at Hampton University and United’s Aviate has training programs at three separate HBCUs.
Irving: Flying Classroom students, welcome to our JellyFish Lake expedition.
Lee: These days, Captain Barrington Irving runs the flying classroom which he founded in 2014. The company creates educational materials for K-12 students and teachers based on expeditions he’s undertaken around the globe. And they’re not just lessons about flying.
Irving: Now, I know what you guys are thinking, Jellyfish? You’re supposed to stay away from jellyfish. That is 100 percent correct. You guys remembered what happened to Dory in the first Finding Nemo, right? Well, this is a little bit different.
When I flew around the world, I learned about countries and civilizations and technology, advanced technology. I literally saw the whole world and it changed my perspective on what is possible and it was just amazing.
Lee: Bro, it sounded like you found Wakanda, man. It’s like —
Irving: Yeah.
Lee: It sound like you came back with some Vibranium. Like you —
Irving: Absolutely, man. I mean, that’s what I felt like. You know, when you found a world within a world, your perspective and purpose in life kind of shifts a bit.
Lee: Wow.
Irving: Like setting a record and stuff, all that was cool, and I know it meant something, but it was not until is started working with young people, getting them to build airplanes, getting them into aviation programs, doing a number of different projects with them. And shortly, after you see these kids on that trajectory in these different fields and they’re starting to accomplish these things, and the greatest reward is when you see someone who realizes their own potential and, you know, you played a part in helping them with that, kind of like, what my mentor did with me.
Lee: It sounds like, you know, the flying has to go in tandem, at least, if you’re a Black pilot, of giving back somehow. It seems like it’s not – it’s like these things are joined, they’re linked.
Irving: Oh, for me, it is.
Lee: And despite all the gains that have been made since the Tuskegee Airmen and even since Captain Robinson’s time, Barrington says that young aspiring pilots like his mentee, Tremaine Johnson, still face an uphill battle. There is a tremendous challenge where, yes, we need to do more to attract young people. We also need to do more in helping young people make it past the finish line, right?
Irving: What do you do when you want to become a professional pilot, you start off – your family takes the loans and everything and you’re capped out at $50, $60, $70,000? What do you when you have to go to school and also do flight training? Like there are real issues surrounding the feasibility for any young person to become a pilot because it’s expensive and it requires real dedication.
Lee: And then you add to that all the systemic barriers, the structural issues around race in this country —
Irving: Yeah —
Lee: — and creates even more barriers.
Irving: Yeah. We have I haven’t even reached that part yet, right? So, there is the financial inability in certain aspects and then now you get in the mental game, right? Now, you get in the game of, you know, when you take a test, your test is going to be harder than anyone else.
You know, when you sit down and you’re being reviewed in that flight simulator – this is not always the case, but I know I dealt with this – you get a different response than somebody else. I mean, I’ve flown with some folks and with some instructors and the way they talk to me versus the way they talk to a guy who just messed up is night and day.
You know, the other guy, oh, you made a mistake or, you know, you know, yes, yes, I did know that. I forgot that, you know, I don’t get that same excuse. I remember that in flight training. I remember some of the flight examiners, old school cats. I mean, you could just smell it off of them, you know, who didn’t want you in their industry.
At the end of the day, and I think this is where our young people struggle, what they don’t know is inadvertently, these things make you better. Yeah, I know, it’s like anything. Yeah, I know I probably got to put in 10 times more the work, but I will be 10 times better. It just is what it is.
Lee: Talk to me about Tremaine and what that relationship has been like for you.
Irving: Man, Tremaine’s been an amazing young man to work with because he’s hungry. I realize I have a couple core responsibilities with him. One is to educate him on the industry just like my mentor did with me. The other thing is for him to realize his self-worth. He knows his potential, but he hasn’t realized his self-worth yet.
Lee: What do you hope most for Tremaine but also the Tremaine’s of the world? The next generation of young Black pilots. What do you hope most for them?
Irving: Man, I just want them to achieve their highest self through aviation. It’s just as simple as that. Because I know it has other domino effects. They first change their lives and then they’re going to change other lives. And whether that’s their immediate families or their friends, their surroundings, like people are always watching you.
I got a home boy right now who’s an air traffic controller in D.C. I got tons of students from my same neighborhood whose captains and co-captains and co-pilots in – that’s what it’s about, the same thing the Tuskegee Airmen differ elsewhere. You’re strategically advancing people, but the advancement is more than the person. The advancement is the community. The advancement is the society.
Everybody who worked with me, they know when I call and I’m like, look, we’re going to go somewhere, we going to work with some young people, this is what we going to do today. I don’t get no no’s because that’s a habit I want to instill in them the same way my mentor did for me.
Lee: Wow. Changing community by changing individual lives, we all rise.
Irving: Oh, absolutely. That’s a domino effect. And I look at young people like Tremaine, you already know they’re going to make it. They just need their shot. They just need somebody to say, hey, I’m going to give you a part.
Lee: If you travel anywhere for the holidays, we hope it’s been a safe and smooth journey. Wishing everyone a Happy Turkey Day.
Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook using the handle at Into America pod or you can tweet me @trymainelee, that’s at Trymaine Lee, my full name.
This episode of Into America was produced by produced by Isabel Angell, Allison Bailey, Mike Brown, Aaron Dalton, and Max Jacobs. Original music is by Hannis Brown. Our executive producer is Aisha Turner. I’m Trymaine Lee. We’ll see you next Thursday.