Transcript
American Radical: episode 2
The Other Justin
AYMAN MOHYELDIN: Just a warning. This series contains descriptions of violence and some profanities from the people telling the story. We don’t want you to be caught off guard. In the final moments of Rosanne Boyland’s life, after she had been crushed in a crowd of people pushing towards an entrance to the Capitol, a man in a teal blue-hooded sweatshirt with a scratchy voice tried to help her.
JUSTIN WINCHELL: Give me your hand. She’s dead. She’s dead.
MOHYELDIN: The man’s name is Justin Winchell. He and Rosanne had driven up all night from Kennesaw, Georgia to make it in time to see President Donald Trump rally supporters at the Ellipse. They’d gone with the crowd of thousands of people to the Capitol, and then the pair had found themselves trapped on the West Front, where Rosanne had ended up in that deadly scrum. Throughout the day, Winchell had been sending text messages back and forth to Rosanne’s father, Bret. It was on that text thread that Bret first found out that something bad had happened to Rosanne.
BRET BOYLAND:”Please call me. I need to talk to you about Rosanne. She’d been hurt.” So.
MOHYELDIN: And it was on that thread eight hours later when it was Bret’s turn to deliver bad news. He texted Winchell to tell him that they’d identified a dead body at a local hospital as Rosanne. Rosanne’s sister Lonna has the screenshots.
LONNA CAVE:Thursday, January 7th, 12:44 a.m., my dad texted Justin Winchell. “Got a call from a detective a while ago. Rosanne died. She was at one of the hospitals as a Jane Doe. She didn’t have her ID, so they verified some of her tattoos with us. The medical examiner is supposed to call us in the morning.”
MOHYELDIN: The next few weeks were grueling for the Boylands. Retrieving Rosanne’s body and arranging for cremation, fending off calls from friends, reporters, even strangers, all while watching Rosanne’s memory become a talking point.
JUSTIN CAVE:We lost a loved one in a violent sociopolitical event that’s been viewed around the world. How do you internalize that? How do you digest that? How do you absorb that? You know, how do you find peace with that?
MOHYELDIN: Justin Winchell got back in touch in late January. He texted several times to offer assistance or just to meet up for lunch or coffee with Bret and his wife Cheryl. “Just know that I’m here no matter what, even though we have not met,” he wrote. Then, one day, he called.
B. BOYLAND:He called me, seein’ if I wanted to meet and talk with him and stuff. And at the time, I just told him I wasn’t ready to, you know, do that with him. So I said, “I’ll get back in touch with you, you know, in a few weeks probably.” So.
CHERYL BOYLAND:At that time, Justin told Bret that he wouldn’t be going on social media or giving any interviews, or anything like that anymore, that he was gonna kind of lay low and be quiet about everything. But that if Bret needed to talk to him or I did, he would be available.
MOHYELDIN: At the end of February, Bret decided he was finally ready to meet up.
B. BOYLAND:I had his number, phone number from that night they rode up together and the next couple of days that we were text messagin’ and talkin’ back and forth. And then one of the calls I got from him was from a different number. So when I tried to get back in touch with him, I tried both those numbers and kinda got no response from either one of ’em.
MOHYELDIN: Bret kept trying to reach him. So did other members of the family. They called, texted, reached out to mutual friends. But Justin Winchell had vanished. From MSNBC, I’m Ayman Mohyeldin, and this is American Radical. (MUSIC) Episode II: The Other Justin. Rosanne and her sister Lonna fought a lot as kids.
L. CAVE:We used to fight over the remote control all the time. Fistfights over the remote control.
MOHYELDIN: But Lonna, who is five years older, was protective of her little sister.
L. CAVE:There was this kid that was a year older than me, and he was ridin’ around our neighborhood on his bicycle. And he, like, flicked Rosanne off and, like, called her a name or something. So I’m probably ten. He’s probably 11. So she’s five. And so I run out there and I’m like, “Don’t you talk to my sister like that. You know, you don’t blah-blah-blah.” And, like, yelling at him. And Rosanne, like, started crying because I stuck up for her.
MOHYELDIN: But Lonna wasn’t with Rosanne on January 6th. None of the family was.
L. CAVE:You know, I’m her older sister. I should have done more to protect her.
MOHYELDIN: She and her parents are still trying to make sense of how Rosanne ended up in D.C. at all.
C. BOYLAND:She had a severe case of can’t be in crowds at all. I mean.
B. BOYLAND:Yeah, she didn’t even like goin’ to Walmart or grocery store. She just hated gettin’ close to people. So that was a real surprise, when we saw where she was and stuff. But I guess the things that occurred over the past six months as she was gettin’ more and more involved, she did go to one of his– not the very last rally he did in Georgia but the second-to-last. Rome, Georgia, she went to that.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:Well, thank you very much. Hello Georgia. Hello Georgia.
B. BOYLAND:His son, Trump Jr., was in Kennesaw at a gun club up there doin’ a speech one night. So I went up there and watched that with her. So with that stuff in mind, not a surprise that she wanted to go up there.
C. BOYLAND:She told me what she felt. (SIGH) She said, “My president has asked me to come support him. And I’ve done so many stupid things in my life that I’m gonna do somethin’ that I really believe in.”
MOHYELDIN: But actually going with the crowd to the Capitol and trying to force her way in? That was something they did not expect. And they began to wonder about the role that Justin Winchell had played.
B. BOYLAND:The one thing we don’t know is: Did Rosanne go up that far all on her own? Or did he persuade? We don’t know that. So, I mean, where we saw her at was like she had no business bein’ up there. I mean, she had talked to all of us, tellin’ us that she, you know, wasn’t gonna get involved if it got crazy.
MOHYELDIN: Lonna had the same questions. She started keeping track of them in her journal.
C. BOYLAND:”Where the fuck is Justin at? I have so many questions for him. I need to know why. Why were you all up in the entrance? What made you want to be crammed in there with all those people? Did you think you might not be coming home? Or were you really prepared to die for Trump like so many others were that day?”
MOHYELDIN: Lonna and her parents are hoping to get Rosanne’s phone unlocked to answer questions like these, but the process is taking longer than they thought. So all that the Boylands really know about Justin is that he and Rosanne met through Alcoholics Anonymous. Drugs were Rosanne’s problem, not alcohol. But Lonna says that’s what made AA a comfortable place for her.
C. BOYLAND:She liked going to AA meetings instead of NA meetings because in the NA meetings they always, you know, would talk about how messed up on drugs they got. And it was kind of almost like a trigger to her. So she liked going to the AA meetings because she didn’t ever have a problem with alcohol. So people could talk about getting wasted all day long. It didn’t bother her.
MOHYELDIN: There was one place in particular she had come to frequent. It was called the Atlanta Triangle Club. It’s about 30 miles from Lonna and Justin’s home here downtown. It’s a small, lowkey nonprofit. People flow in and out, chat and smoke outside. Rosanne loved the place and went to late night meetings there.
L. CAVE:She went to the midnight meetings. And basically they all just kind of congregated outside and would talk before the meetings and would talk after the meetings. And that’s where she spent a lot of her evenings. I think she went Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays I want to say. And then sometimes sporadically she would go other days throughout the week.
MOHYELDIN: Did you ever go with her to a AA meeting?
L. CAVE:No, I didn’t ever attend any of the meetings. I’m not into sharing feelings, and talking, and stuff like that, or listening to other people’s problems. I’ve got my own problems. I wasn’t participating in the AA aspect or any of her recovery stuff, honestly.
MOHYELDIN: Bret and Cheryl never attended a meeting at Triangle either. But Rosanne would, on occasion, bring friends from her midnight meetings over to her parents’ house. Cheryl remembers one woman named Kim.
C. BOYLAND:She met her at Triangle, and they were like the same. I mean the same diagnosis, everything. So they said they were like parts of the same body or something. They had both the same mental issues. And this girl was actually gonna go with her and Justin, but she didn’t really like Justin (LAUGH) and she didn’t think she could stand listenin’ to him that long in the car. She did go to the rally in Rome with Rosanne.
MOHYELDIN: We tried to get in touch with Kim on multiple occasions to see what she knew about Justin Winchell and Rosanne’s time at Triangle. She never got back to us. But that memory got the family thinking. Was it possible that someone at Triangle had been indoctrinating Rosanne and the other members into QAnon and into the belief that dedicating your life to Trump was a matter of good and evil?
L. CAVE:I think a lot of people that get mixed up in cult-like situations are on the fringe of society. They’re, you know, looking for purpose. And that’s why I kinda wonder if maybe there was somebody that purposely went to the AA and NA meetings. Like, maybe that’s how they’re, like, recruiting people, is because most people that are recovering addicts are looking for purpose in life. They’re trying to figure out who they are as a sober person.
MOHYELDIN: My producer, Preeti Varathan, wanted to clarify what Lonna meant.
PREETI VARATHAN: But do you really think that– I mean, what you’re saying sort of implies that there might be intentional plans at–
L. CAVE:Yeah, oh yeah.
VARATHAN:–these AA meetings.
L. CAVE:That’s what I wonder, yeah. Because–
VARATHAN: You do? You wonder–
L. CAVE:Yeah.
VARATHAN:–if people are there trying to–
L. CAVE:Recruit. ‘Cause–
VARATHAN:–recruit?
L. CAVE:–what better way, what source of people to try and recruit than people that are looking for purpose? That’s literally what they’re there for, is looking to find, you know, companionship, and purpose, and meaning in this new thing called sobriety. They’re looking for a family-type close-knit group. And that’s all the things that cults do.
MOHYELDIN: The Atlanta Triangle Club never answered our calls or messages about what might have happened in those meetings. But in Lonna’s version of events, Rosanne was a victim surrounded by some bad people, people who convinced her to believe something that wasn’t real. And Justin Winchell might have been one of them.
Of course, the only way to find out was to talk to him. And that was the problem. All she had to go off of were some texts about travel logistics and the fading memories of a few phone calls. But there was someone with a lot more material, someone—seemingly the only one—who’d really talked to Justin Winchell about January 6th before he went dark.
ZAC SUMMERS:It never dawned on me that I would be the last reporter to ever talk to this man. I was in my bedroom. I had on the news. And, you know, of course I’m preparing for work and doin’ some research. And…
MOHYELDIN: That’s Zac Summers, a reporter at CBS46 in Atlanta. On January 6th, he was getting ready for the night shift when he saw the insurrection start to play out on live TV.
SUMMERS:Then you started to see what was happening at the Capitol. And I remember thinking like, “Is this really happening in America?” ‘Cause it was just so bizarre, what was unfolding.
MOHYELDIN: The rest of the day was wall-to-wall coverage of the riot.
SUMMERS:So the next day, January 7th, I was about to get into our editorial meeting. And word had come down that Rosanne was one of the victims from the insurrection. So they were like, “Zac, we want you to stay on this story. Try to find more about this woman from Kennesaw.”
We found Rosanne’s Facebook page. And literally, every friend of hers that I could find on Facebook, I sent a message. “Hey, Zac Summers with CBS46 in Atlanta. I’m working on a story about what happened to Rosanne, tryin’ to get to know a little bit about her. Is there any chance I could talk with you?”
MOHYELDIN:
Most people never got back to Zac. But he did manage to reach one person.
SUMMERS:
A friend of hers I guess knew her from childhood and was still sort of close to her family. I had to break the news to her that Rosanne was killed, which is always hard, to tell somebody that someone they knew has died. She was very gracious and very nice. She said, “Well, let me talk to her parents and see if they’re okay with this, and I’ll call you back.”
I for sure thought she was never gonna call me back. Within 10 minutes of that phone call, she said, “Hey, I’ll do you one better. I will give you Justin Winchell’s contact. He went to the Capitol with Rosanne. So give him a call. See if he talks to you.”
MOHYELDIN: He didn’t know how the woman knew Justin Winchell, or if this guy Winchell was expecting his call. Zac thought there was a strong chance that Winchell would simply hang up on him or even cuss him out. But he was on deadline with a good lead. And so he dialed his number.
SUMMERS:I called Justin. And, sure enough, he was like, “Yeah, I’ll talk to you.”
MOHYELDIN: Zac set up a Zoom call. And in that footage, you can see Justin in his hotel room in Washington, D.C.
SUMMERS:And we got on the Zoom. And, yeah, for 20 minutes we talked about what had unfolded at the Capitol. It is probably one of the most interesting interviews I have ever, ever done in my nearly decade of bein’ in the business.
SUMMERS:All right. I’m recording. First, can I have you say and spell your first and last name?
WINCHELL:My name is Justin, J-U-S-T-I-N. Last name Winchell, W-I-N-C-H-E-double Like.
MOHYELDIN: Only a short clip of the interview ran in a two-minute-long story on January 7th and then in later segments that the station aired. But Zac had held on to the full interview, and the station gave us permission to use it.
SUMMERS:And, Justin, you went to the rally with Rosanne?
WINCHELL: Yeah. Sure enough. We drove up from Atlanta together to attend the rally.
SUMMERS:So how long have you all known each other?
WINCHELL: We’d known each other, I don’t know. Probably close to two years now.
MOHYELDIN: Over the last eight months, Winchell said, they’d started hanging out more and more.
WINCHELL: She and I stayed pretty active in just kind of events of the world today and alternative news sources. ‘Cause, as we know, not many things are what they seem these days. We got into that, and we have other common interests, music and stuff like that. So we’ve been spending a lot of time. She’s a pretty bright girl. Super amazing girl.
SUMMERS:Tell me what happened yesterday.
WINCHELL: We got there about 7:00 a.m., right by the National Monument and the Ellipse. So we went there. Everything was peaceful. A lotta children, people sellin’, you know, their T-shirts. And, I mean, there was even food vendors. It was basically like goin’ to any other– I mean, it wasn’t like a hoorah-type thing whatsoever. Everybody was just happy to be an American. You know, I think there’s a person or two in the United States that doesn’t think that the election was fair and honest.
SUMMERS:They were very much of the belief that the election was stolen, and they were goin’ to this rally that was hosted by President Trump. And, you know, Justin’s account, it was all peaceful. It was a peaceful event.
WINCHELL: When Donald Trump was done speaking, they had an event at the Capital building at 1:00. So we marched to the Capital building at 1:00, and then people had gotten up on the scaffolding and stuff like that. I mean, everything was really, really positive. This wasn’t, like, an angry thing. People were singing the national anthem, doin’ all kinds of stuff.
This was not an angry protest by any means. We got closer and closer, and we went up on the second landing of the Capital building itself ’cause it was crowded. And we have heard that some people did go in. That was not our intention. But it was not supposed to be a violent event, nor was it a violent event.
SUMMERS:He basically says that there were instigators in the crowd, non-Trump supporters who were, you know, starting to cause this melee that eventually turned into what we know as the insurrection.
WINCHELL: There were some people in the front that I really don’t think were with us. And, you know, who knows? Maybe they were radical Trump supporters. But it just didn’t feel like that. You know, they had all the garb on a little too much.
SUMMERS:Take me to why Rosanne isn’t here with us right now. Take me to that moment.
WINCHELL: Right. I kinda lost Rosanne. She was like two people away from me. There were probably three or four guys in the back and people, I mean, actively just pushing people. Like, pushing people, pushing people, pushing people to get closer to the door, to go into the building. So it essentially started into, like, they basically created a panic. And then the police in turn pushed back on them so people started falling.
MOHYELDIN: Winchell told Zac he put his arm around someone to help him off the ground. Then he looked back down.
WINCHELL: Roseanne turns her head up, lips blue. I think she had been without oxygen face down and people laid on top of her. And then there’s two others guys I pulled off of her. And then the last time I tried to get her up, I got my arm underneath her. And then another guy fell on top of her. And then another guy was just walking. I mean, there was people crushed.
SUMMERS:He talked about the moment where he tried to reach out to her and grab her and she’s blue in the face. And eventually, you know, him and some other “patriots,” as he called them, were able to get Rosanne to the side. But then he starts, at moments in the interview, to put the blame on the Capital Police.
MOHYELDIN: The police deny that they caused Rosanne’s death. And they say that Rosanne’s autopsy report proves it. But this theory that officers played a role will become a big part of the story and something that we spend time on later in the series.
WINCHELL: She was already blue, and the Capitol Police hit her once in the face. And some blood started coming out of her nose. I was like, “I think she’s dead. I think she’s dead.” And I’m screamin’ this. And we finally got her out, myself and two patriots. One of ’em had med scissors and a med kit, and they performed CPR on her. They were goin’ up and down on her chest.
SUMMERS:When you see your friend on the ground, blue in the face, what’s goin’ through your mind in that moment?
WINCHELL: It showed me that human life really doesn’t mean anything. I was trying. I was screaming. And there was a lot of us. There’s a lot of us trying to make this thing work and, you know, get our people out. ‘Cause this is not what we came– we didn’t come to, like, create this even that’s been really manufactured.
SUMMERS:Let me ask you this, Justin. You said, “I don’t understand why this is being portrayed as a violent event.” But at the end of the day, you have four people who are dead.
WINCHELL: Yes.
SUMMERS:Does the president, President Trump, have blood on his hands?
WINCHELL: Does he have blood on his hands? No.
SUMMERS:You don’t think the president bears any responsibility as to what–
WINCHELL: It was a peaceful event. Absolutely not.
SUMMERS:But it turned violent.
WINCHELL: I know. And we weren’t the perpetuators (SIC) of the violence. Do you understand? It was peaceful, peaceful, peaceful, peaceful. It was peaceful. Even that picture with the guy with the furry hat on with the horns, you know, and all his buddies in Congress, he’s an Antifa member.
SUMMERS:So you’re sayin’ none of them were Trump supporters?
WINCHELL:I’m not saying none of them. But I’m saying the fuel was fired, that there was a fuse that was lit and there was negative, negative energy. I lost a dear, dear friend, man, an amazing friend whom I miss dearly. But she was killed by an incited event, and it was not incited by Trump supporters.
SUMMERS:It wasn’t?
WINCHELL: No. Absolutely not. I just told you, man.
SUMMERS:As a reporter, you know, our job is always to remain objective and I approach every story that way. I will say it was difficult though. A majority of us watched what happened that day. And, you know, he was using words like, “The media’s manufacturing this story.” And I’m like, “Well, Justin, the media’s just reporting what we literally saw.”
SUMMERS:You know people will hear what you’re sayin’ and say, “Is he delusional?”
WINCHELL: They can think that all they want. I don’t care.
SUMMERS:People were in D.C.–
WINCHELL: You don’t think that they have the ability to put people in, some Antifa people and stuff like that? You don’t think since Trump announced this was going to go on at the 6th? You don’t…
SUMMERS:It’s just unbelievable that, you know, there are supporters of the former president who are just so in it where they can’t even face reality.
WINCHELL:Rosanne was fighting for this very fact, that things are not what they seem. People are being pinned against each other. We’re fighting for freedom and for our beautiful human race. And unfortunately, a lot of people are still asleep. And we’ll see what it takes to make it. But I’m telling you, her death is exactly the things that she was passionate about people seeing. And it’s–
SUMMERS:So you’re saying that she–
WINCHELL:–it’s appropriate.
SUMMERS:It’s appropriate?
WINCHELL: I mean, no. It’s appropriate. It’s appropriate that this is gonna be like this, you know? But this is exactly what was done to her, was literally the things that she wants to wake people up to.
SUMMERS:I was just speechless. There was a part of me that questioned, “Was he completely sober?” He just seemed very all over the place. And maybe that’s his personality. I don’t know. But based on things I had learned from other friends in the past of Rosanne’s, looking back at that interview you wonder, “Okay, was he all the way there?”
MOHYELDIN: At the end of the interview, Zac and Winchell said their goodbyes and Winchell agreed to send along some photos from the day before.
WINCHELL: Shoot me your contact card and I’ll get all that stuff over to you right now.
SUMMERS:So with that, send you my contact information. And you take care. When are you comin’ back to…
SUMMERS:I knew I was getting somethin’ that nobody else in the market would have. It’s crazy to think that he has never talked to anybody else since that interview.
MOHYELDIN: Do you have any idea where he is now?
SUMMERS:I’ve tried his email, tried the phone number he gave me. He’s nowhere to be found. And I have no idea where he could be.
MOHYELDIN: But Zac remembered something. He had an email from Justin Winchell from back in January. And at the bottom of the message in Winchell’s email signature was an address.
(BREAK IN TAPE)
MOHYELDIN: In mid-August, on a hot evening in Kennesaw, Justin, Lonna, and my producer Preeti sat around the kitchen table hatching a plan. It was well past everyone’s bedtime, and Justin had thrown open the doors to the backyard to let some cool air in.
VARATHAN: I have two addresses for Justin Winchell. One is through, like, me going deep on LexisNexis and trying to find his, like, last-posted information. The other one is actually from the last reporter who spoke to him, Zac, who’s a CBS46 reporter.
J. CAVE:Is that the day of–
VARATHAN: It was the–
J. CAVE:–that he had made that appearance on the–
L. CAVE:Well, that was he was still up in Washington–
(OVERTALK)
VARATHAN: He’s kind of gone dark.
L. CAVE:He’s gone dark.
VARATHAN: Exactly. And I should tell you the number that Zac used to get in touch with Justin he no longer responds to. In fact, anyone who’s tried to call that number, it immediately goes to voicemail.
MOHYELDIN: Justin and Lonna Cave were still trying to track Winchell down. Of course, we really wanted to talk to Winchell, too. We found a few numbers associated with Winchell, but everyone we tried either went straight to voicemail, had been disconnected, or belonged to someone else.
OPERATOR:The number you dialed is not a working number.
VARATHAN:Hello?
FEMALE VOICE:Hello?
VARATHAN: Hi. Is this Justin Winchell’s number? (BEEPING)
MOHYELDIN:We then tried to find his family and track down some people with the same last name who appeared to have shared an address with Winchell in the past.
FEMALE VOICE:Hi, this is the Winchells. Please leave a message.
MOHYELDIN:But we hadn’t heard back from anyone. So we decided we didn’t have any other options. It was time to try knocking on Justin Winchell’s door. And here’s where Preeti picks up the story.
VARATHAN:We had the address that Zac Summers had given us, which matched a record we turned up on our end. We of course didn’t know whether Winchell still lived there, but we thought it was worth a shot. So on a Sunday afternoon, Justin picked me up in his truck. All right. I’m recording.
J. CAVE:All right. So let’s talk about this for a second. Should we go down to this address that might be Winchell’s mom’s address first?
VARATHAN:I think Justin lived with his mom.
J. CAVE:We’ll go there first. I’m going to route it right now. This is 75 to Centennial here.
VARATHAN: As we drove on to I-75 North, Justin started fidgeting. I asked him if he was nervous.
J. CAVE:A little bit. You know, I mean, normally I wouldn’t knock on a stranger’s door. But I think given the circumstances, you know, nobody knows where he’s at.
AI VOICE:Pass this light. Then at the next one, turn right.
VARATHAN: What drink do you have over there?
J. CAVE:A latte with four shots of espresso. It’s a quad.
VARATHAN: Justin said he wanted to practice our questions.
J. CAVE: What do you think a good question to ask would be? Like.
VARATHAN: Honestly, my very first question would be, “Whose idea was it to go up to the Capitol?” I sort of see my job as trying to figure out how Rosanne became radicalized, and I wonder to what extent Justin Winchell’s a part of that.
J. CAVE:Maybe I could ask him how did he hear about QAnon. Why is he involved with this QAnon thing? Because it’s strange. You know, what did they talk about on the way up there?
VARATHAN: Eventually, we made it to a relatively nondescript neighborhood with tall apartment buildings and stores at street level.
J. CAVE:Okay. Looks like past this light. It should be one of these buildings. Okay. This is it right here, I think.
AI VOICE:The destination is on your right.
J. CAVE:That’s it right there. Okay.
AI VOICE:Arrived.
J. CAVE:All right.
VARATHAN: Justin parked the car and killed the engine. But right when we were about to head over to Winchell’s building, he started to wonder what we might do if no one was home. So we decided he was gonna write a letter that he could leave under the door.
J. CAVE:Okay. Justin, Lonna and I need to speak to you about Rosanne. Please call or text. With love, Justin. I’ll just put “Justin C.”
VARATHAN: At this point, Justin’s hands were shaking so badly he could barely get the keys out of the ignition.
J. CAVE:I’m gonna smoke a cigarette outside the truck, okay–
(OVERTALK)
VARATHAN:Okay.
J. CAVE:’Cause I’m a little nervous. Like I said, I don’t really know what to expect.
VARATHAN: When Justin had finally collected himself, we made our way up the walkway.
J. CAVE:All right. We got the walk here. Let’s keep it movin’.
VARATHAN: To a drab gray building. Of course, the front door was locked. But there was a keypad directory.
J. CAVE: Clickin’ through the names here. I’m trying to see if I can find “Winchell” on the thing.
VARATHAN: Winchell. Right there–
J. CAVE:Justin Winchell.
VARATHAN:Okay.
VARATHAN: Justin started to dial Winchell’s apartment. But at that exact moment, a security guard spotted us.
SECURITY GUARD:How can I help you?
J. CAVE:Hey, I was just trying to go up to the 17th floor.
SECURITY GUARD:For what?
J. CAVE:I just wanted to talk to the Winchells.
OPERATOR:The number you dialed is not a working number. Please check the number and dial again.
J. CAVE:Huh?
(FOREIGN LANGUAGE NOT TRANSCRIBED)
J. CAVE: Could you give this to him for me?
SECURITY GUARD:You guys gotta find a better way to get in contact with him. You can’t do it like this.
J. CAVE:I know.
SECURITY GUARD:Like, you know what I mean–
J. CAVE:Well, how else we can do it? This is a letter. Could you just give it to him?
VARATHAN: The guard shook his head.
J. CAVE:All right. Appreciate you, man–
VARATHAN: All right. Thank you.
J. CAVE:All right.
SECURITY GUARD: (UNINTEL) you guys.
VARATHAN: Justin still wanted to find a way to deliver his letter. So we came up with a plan B, the Triangle Club, the AA facility where Justin and Rosanne had met. When we got there, he asked if he could head in alone.
J. CAVE:I just went in here to the AA meeting place. It looks like a meeting just got out. There was actually a lot of people there. I said, “Our sister Rosanne used to come to meetings here. Is there somebody I can leave this where in case he comes in?” He goes, “You can stick it on the bulletin board.” So I left the letter on the bulletin board there with his name on it, Justin W.
VARATHAN: Justin took a moment to exhale. And then suddenly he was leaning over the dash looking through the car window. There was a guy in a hoodie with bleach blonde hair walking around.
J. CAVE:Hang tight. It looks like him. Nah, I’m trippin’. Let’s go, okay?
VARATHAN: All right. All right.
J. CAVE:You know, like I said, it’s just like– he’s not here.
MOHYELDIN: Justin and Preeti didn’t find Justin Winchell that day. We did eventually reach his mother on the phone.
VARATHAN: Hi. Is this Judy Winchell? You are his mother? Okay.
MOHYELDIN: But she didn’t want to be recorded. And it was clear that she didn’t want to be interviewed. She said if we wanted to get in touch with Justin, we’d need to go through his lawyer, and she declined to give us his contact info. She said she’d pass along ours.
VARATHAN: Yeah. I can give you my number right now.
MOHYELDIN: We didn’t really expect to hear anything back, and we still haven’t. But even if we couldn’t talk to Justin Winchell and hear his account of how Rosanne got radicalized, there was someone who’d compiled a pretty clear record of what she came to believe, Rosanne herself. Next time on American Radical…
L. CAVE:She stayed up all night on YouTube.
ARCHIVAL RECORDING:#SaveTheChildren. #TakeTheRedPill. Then #DownTheRabbitHole.
ARCHIVAL RECORDING:It was a way to bring people in. It was like terror recruiting.
ARCHIVAL RECORDING:I was like, “Is Rosanne a Trump supporter now?”
L. CAVE:You know, all these things that looking back now are like, “Oh shit. Like, these are all warning signs.”
MOHYELDIN: From MSNBC, this is episode two of five of American Radical. The series was reported and produced by Preeti Varathan, with Eva Ruth Moravec and Ursula Sommer. Additional production help from Abe Selby and Olivia Richard. Original music by Brian Robertson and MJ Hancock. Sound design by Rick Kwan. Bryson Barnes is our technical director. Reid Cherlin is our executive producer. Madeleine Haeringer is our head of editorial. Special thanks to Zac Summers and Brian Kanziger at CBS46.