Welcome to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki,” a new podcast from MSNBC looking to shed some light on the state of the Democratic party and how to win again.
On this first episode, the conversation starts like many across the country– with football. Governor Wes Moore of Maryland is no stranger to the sport and his approach to the game often aligns with his approach to politics: be a team player, and if you see a play- be bold. Governor Moore talks about his life coming up in Maryland and what led him from the Robinhood Foundation to the Governor’s mansion. He and Jen also dig in to what it means to be a patriotic American, where the party can be bolder, and find optimism in authenticity as a winning factor.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
Jen Psaki: Hi there. It’s Jen Psaki. I spent 20 years working in Democratic politics, and now I’m the host of MSNBC’s “Inside with Jen Psaki.” And since November, I probably like most of you, have been spending a lot of time thinking about what gave us another Donald Trump presidency.
Now, to be clear, Trump didn’t win in a landslide. He won the popular vote by the smallest margin of any president since Nixon, but he did win six swing states that won blue last time. And he is now sitting in the Oval Office. So how did we get here?
And more importantly, I’ve been thinking a lot about where the Democrats go from here. Look, those questions are hard and they warrant longer and definitely more introspective conversations than a short segment on TV allows for. Plus, the actions of the Trump administration and our efforts to try to understand them and explain them, it all takes up a lot of oxygen.
So I wanted to have a place to discuss what the Democrats are doing to regain power. It prompted me to call up some people I’ve known for very long time, some who I think just have interesting and different perspectives, to take a candid look at what just happened and talk about what they think the blueprint should be for Democrats winning again.
I’ll talk with rising stars.
Gov. Wes Moore: If you believe in this country, that doesn’t mean saying that it is flawless. Loving your country doesn’t mean lying about its history.
Jen Psaki: Wrestled political hands.
Unidentified Male: We have a debate about message, totally legit, but we lose sight that the messenger is also a message.
Jen Psaki: Party organizers.
Unidentified Female: We’ve got to be selective. We also have to be able to differentiate between what is shock and awe and what is meaningful action.
Jen Psaki: And even some social media darlings.
Unidentified Male: You have to be very clear and you have to be very controversial in order to break through, I think.
Jen Psaki: So here we go. Welcome to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.”
For our first conversation, I talked with Maryland Governor Wes Moore just before the Super Bowl. He’s obviously a rising star. But I wanted to talk with him because he is one of the most compelling personal stories in politics today. He’s blunt about where the party is falling short, and he also doesn’t shy away from showing up in places you may not expect.
Gov. Wes Moore: I can still run with these boys. The problem is the next day. I could barely get out of bed the next day because I was so sore.
Jen Psaki: That conversation is next on “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.”
This is where we just get crazy, so just buckle up. Just kidding. Okay. Governor Moore, it’s great to see you.
Gov. Wes Moore: Hi, Jen. It’s great to see you.
Jen Psaki: I may have met you briefly before this, but I think I met you for the first time a year and a half ago when I came to visit you in Annapolis.
Gov. Wes Moore: It was very fun. That was a great day.
Jen Psaki: It was very fun, and we talked all about your background. You have what I would consider a fascinating unique background. You probably didn’t bet as a kid that you were going to be the governor of a state.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah. No.
Jen Psaki: Fair?
Gov. Wes Moore: I didn’t bet a couple years ago that I’d be a governor of a state.
Jen Psaki: Well, that’s fair. Other people didn’t bet initially either, I don’t think —
Gov. Wes Moore: That is true.
Jen Psaki: — if I remember correctly.
Gov. Wes Moore: That is very correct.
Jen Psaki: But you grew up with a single mom. You have an amazing story. She’s an amazing woman. You were in the military. You’re a veteran. You’re a Rhodes Scholar. You ran the Robin Hood Foundation.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: All of this, I think, makes for a unique background, and I want to get into all of it. But it’s the Super Bowl this weekend.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: This is going to air right after the Super Bowl.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes.
Jen Psaki: I may make you make a prediction, but we’ll see where it goes. But one of the things that made me think about is we love football in my house. We’re Bengals fans.
Gov. Wes Moore: My condolences.
Jen Psaki: Sorry. I know you’re a Ravens fan.
Gov. Wes Moore: My 6-year-old, we have Ravens fans across the street because we live in Arlington, but they’re still Ravens fans.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And he will say to our neighbor who is 6’5, boo Ravens. I’m like, whoa, buddy. Let’s just think about who we’re talking smack to for a second. That’s our friend, but he’s 6’5, you’re 40 pounds.
Gov. Wes Moore: You all probably, though, have the most potent offense in the NFL. Your defense can’t hold anybody.
Jen Psaki: No. It’s bad.
Gov. Wes Moore: But your offense is light’s out.
Jen Psaki: Joe Burrow, I will tell you —
Gov. Wes Moore: He’s a star.
Jen Psaki: — if he came to my in-law’s house, my mother-in-law would be like, what kind of pie do you want? I will make you 700 meals. When there was a rumor that he was engaged, we had a family text chain. My mother-in-law was like, he’s too young. He’s not ready yet. I was like, I think he’s the age when you got married, but, anyway, that aside. But I want to get this to you —
Gov. Wes Moore: That’s very cute.
Jen Psaki: — because football, it’s watched by more Americans than anything else, and it is sort of a unifier in the sense that tens of millions of people are going to sit down and watch the Super Bowl. I love sports too. I was a swimmer, not a football player. But one of the things I love about it is at the end of the game, everybody shakes hands, and there may be smack-talking, but you move forward.
But you have done a number of things. You went to the Army-Navy game. You saw Trump there, of course.
Gov. Wes Moore: I did.
Jen Psaki: We can dive into that if you want.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: You were shotgunning a beer at the Ravens game. I want you to know, because we’re about the same age, that when I saw that, I was like, I could still do that. I think I could still shotgun a beer. So you did that. You worked out with the Ravens, I think?
Gov. Wes Moore: I did.
Jen Psaki: And the University of Maryland.
Gov. Wes Moore: No.
Jen Psaki: Who’s in better shape? Which one of them?
Gov. Wes Moore: Oh, the Ravens. However, the Ravens only let me like do little things with them. The University of Maryland, I did a full practice.
Jen Psaki: You did a full practice? I’m sorry.
Gov. Wes Moore: A full practice.
Jen Psaki: I didn’t want to undervalue your participation.
Gov. Wes Moore: Oh, yeah. No. The next day, that’s when I noticed the difference. I can still run with these boys. The problem is the next day. I could barely get out of bed the next day —
Jen Psaki: Oh.
Gov. Wes Moore: — because I was so sore and I’m like, that’s the difference, it’s just they recoup.
Jen Psaki: They recover faster.
Gov. Wes Moore: They recover so much faster. I’m like, that’s the age kicking.
Jen Psaki: Well, yeah, they’re in their 20s.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes.
Jen Psaki: When I worked for President Obama, he used to sometimes “workout,” I’m going to put that in quotes, with college basketball players.
Gov. Wes Moore: Oh.
Jen Psaki: He’s a pretty tall guy.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: He’s in shape. But you see these athletes in person and you’re like, no, you’re younger, but you’re a superior something.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes, there’s levels. There’s levels to this.
Jen Psaki: But what’s interesting to me about this is you clearly love football, as a person. You haven’t been afraid to show that.
(Begin Audio Clip)
Gov. Wes Moore: Hey, Maryland, what time is it? It’s game time. It’s game time. We’re here at the bank. Let’s get this W. We’re on our way. Super bowl bound, baby. Let’s go, Ravens. Ah.
(End Audio Clip)
Jen Psaki: Why have you decided to do all this in the public?
Gov. Wes Moore: Because I do it in the private. Here’s the thing, too, where I played college football. I think football is the most beautiful game that’s ever created because I think it is this perfect combination of a physical game, but it is a highly technical, highly cooperative game. I’ve fallen in love. I will literally go back and watch old games like I’m looking at film.
Jen Psaki: Why?
Gov. Wes Moore: Because I’m always fascinating about the ones who do it really well, what makes them so good, like what makes Lamar Jackson such a unique talent inside the NFL right now, what makes a Saquon Barkley such a great running back is they just see things that other people don’t, and the game moves slower to them, even though they might be the fastest thing on the field.
So I’ve just come to love this game, where even when I go to the Ravens games, I will sit there watching the Ravens game and also have like the RedZone on here because I’m watching the other games while I’m watching the Ravens games. So I’ve always loved it, I always have.
One thing I always said about getting into this game and getting into politics was that I never wanted to change who I was, that who I was before needs to be who I am afterwards. I say the greatest compliment that anyone could ever give me is if they say, it’s the same dude I knew from 10, 20, 30 years ago. If they can say that, then I feel like I would’ve done my job. And so, since I was a huge football fan beforehand, so I’m going to be a huge football fan now.
Jen Psaki: Yes. What I love about this and I figured this since you played football in college, you clearly love it.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Is that sometimes I think, Democrats are afraid to show theirs sides that are not — one of the great things about a lot of Democrats and Democratic Party is it’s like the kids who sat in the front of the class who wanted to get an A in AP history in high school. You’re Rhode Scholar. You don’t have anything to prove.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: But a lot of people seem afraid to show their personal side, their silly side, their human side.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes. And you forget about why you’re actually doing this. So for example, the reason I’m doing this is not because I’m trying to fulfill a lifelong goal. This was not a lifetime goal. At 11 years old, I wasn’t thinking about what am I going to do to be the governor.
Jen Psaki: You weren’t practicing your inaugural address —
Gov. Wes Moore: I wasn’t practicing my inaugural address.
Jen Psaki: — when you were 11 in the mirror?
Gov. Wes Moore: In fact, actually, when I was 11 years old, I had handcuffs on my wrist. I was actually arrested at 11.
Jen Psaki: Okay.
Gov. Wes Moore: So that wasn’t something that was in the cards for me. So I very much feel like I’m playing with house money right now. And so I do think that part of it is that there’s a lot of folks who just seem to forget, why are you doing this in the first place? What is the thing you want to solve? What’s the problem that you want to fix?
And if it’s just about, I’ve been thinking about this for a very long time, then now it’s about you. And that’s the problem because not only does it mean you’re not going to be effective in what you’re going to do, because one thing I’ve learned about the job, man, it takes a dogged passion on an issue or on issues that you will give up everything for. But that’s the reason why I’m doing this. So that’s the thing I’m going to stick to.
If you don’t have a core conviction, then you’re going to find this work being very, very frustrating. And frankly, you’re going to find yourself being forgotten very quickly because you’re not doing anything that’s actually helping people who try to put you there in the first place.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, that’s a good thing to remember. When you run into constituents or people, Marylanders —
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — who don’t know you well, or meeting you for the first time, do they say, do you really like football? Or do they ask you questions? Do they quiz you?
Gov. Wes Moore: No.
Jen Psaki: How do you respond?
Gov. Wes Moore: I think now they believe me because they realize there’s certain things you can’t fake. Like when I get out there every single Friday, I will go on and I’ll give predictions, sports, of course. What do I think is going to happen? Who’s going to win? Why? I break the whole thing down. I think that I now get more comments from people who are like, I’m actually starting to get betting tips from you because I think I’m hitting like 70% so far this year.
Jen Psaki: Okay.
Gov. Wes Moore: I’m pretty good.
Jen Psaki: You just teed me up because this is going to air the morning after the Super Bowl. So who wins? Who’s MVP?
Gov. Wes Moore: I want the Eagles to win.
Jen Psaki: Same. Fly, Eagles, fly. It has to be.
Gov. Wes Moore: Well, no, I can’t stand the Eagles. I just want them to win this game.
Jen Psaki: No. I’m not an Eagles fan. I just want them to —
Gov. Wes Moore: I just want the Chiefs to lose.
Jen Psaki: I want the Chiefs to lose. That’s it.
Gov. Wes Moore: But they’re not going to lose.
Jen Psaki: The Chiefs are going to win.
Gov. Wes Moore: The Chiefs will win. Listen, the Chiefs, they’re another category at this point because we’re literally talking about a team and think about this. The Kansas City Chiefs, it’s been basically a calendar year, right? In the past calendar year, they’ve lost one game. That’s how good this team is.
And when people say, well, they’re not willing the same and they don’t look the same, my argument is, A, when you look at certain elements, for example, their running game is actually better than what it was last year.
The second piece is I don’t understand the argument of they’re not winning the same. I’m like, wait, stop. Let’s break apart that sentence. They are still winning. Correct? So what are we talking about? This team just knows how to win.
And I tell you, I think about it where a little over a year ago, when the Chiefs knocked off my Ravens and I was at the game. So I’m sitting there. I’m at M&T Bank. I’m watching the Ravens come out and they’re all hyped up there. The crowd is nuts. I mean, we are just so excited. They’re up there, they’re sprinting, they’re doing flips and all that kind of stuff.
And I saw the Chiefs walk out of the locker room, just like all business, and just going out there, running their drills, drowning out everything around them. I remember thinking to myself, shit, we’re going to lose, because they’re like, we’ve been here before, guys. We know this. The lights are not that bright. And so, I would love to see the Chief’s dynasty end. I don’t think it’s going to happen with the Philadelphia Eagles.
Jen Psaki: There’s so much I want to talk to you about, but I just ask you one more question about sports. I was a college swimmer and what I learned about that, in terms of my life moving forward, is that there’s nothing worse than a three-hour swim practice at 5:00 AM in Connecticut where it’s 15 degrees.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And there’s a maniacalness about swimming. You’re just like doing the same thing continuously. What have you taken away from sports that has helped you approach your job as governor?
Gov. Wes Moore: I think one of the biggest things about sports that translates to governor is the most important things that you do as governor are not the things that people see. It’s the things they don’t. It’s what you’re doing in preparation. It’s how you are running your government. It’s how you’re building your administration. It’s the things that you’re reading and how you’re spending your time.
The things that people see, that’s, that’s showtime. That’s the game. Champions are not produced on game days. Champions are produced in the days in between game days.
I really think that sports did a great job, I know, in my life of teaching me, how do you win properly? How do you lose properly? How do you focus on building a team? Because everything is going to be about who’s to my left and who’s to my right. And how do you make sure that you can prepare for the long term? Because the great thing about sports oftentimes for each of these things, it’s not about games. These are seasons. And so, you can focus on an individual game.
But you have to remember, you have a long season ahead of you, and making sure that you’re thinking about that when you’re doing your preparation, I think has been huge because we’re very clear. In fact, I have a clock that sits on my desk that counts back the amount of days that I have until my first term is up.
The whole point of it is to never lose sight of the long distance that we have, but to also understand that with that day, I’m never going to get that day back. So what are you going to do that day to make sure that it’s helping to lay a foundation for what you’re hoping to get done by the time that clock runs at zero.
Jen Psaki: That’s a good mantra. We have one of those cheesy saying things, when you walk out of the door in our basement, that I make my kids look at, sometimes it’s about you never get this day back, which is I think a reminder.
Gov. Wes Moore: Right.
Jen Psaki: So I mentioned at the start of our conversation, you just have a really interesting background. I mean, you’re raised by a single mom. You also spent a couple of years running the Robin Hood Foundation. And for people who aren’t familiar with it, and you can tell me if this is the accurate description.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: Basically focused on addressing poverty, and it’s a really incredible organization. Because of your background, because of that, I want to ask you just about the Democrat’s inability, I will say, defined it as, to connect on issues that impact working people, lower income families.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes.
Jen Psaki: And how you think about that?
Gov. Wes Moore: Honestly, for me, it’s a bit embarrassing because I think about for many people who are living in poverty, there is this idea that, well, they should just work harder. And I’m like, how hard do they have to work?
Jen Psaki: Just get a job and we’ll give you some benefits.
Gov. Wes Moore: Just get a job.
Jen Psaki: Yes.
Gov. Wes Moore: And I think about it in context where, particularly when we’re talking about children who are growing up in poverty, and people say, well, how does poverty show itself? I’m like, it literally shows itself in every single aspect of your life. It shows itself in the water you’re drinking. It shows itself in the air you’re breathing. It shows itself in the transportation assets you have, or don’t have. It shows itself in how your policed. It shows itself in the schools that your children attend. I mean, it literally shows itself in every single way.
And since the reason that we have so many people living in poverty is not because of laziness. These are policy decisions that oftentimes are in place, that are either putting people and keeping people in poverty.
And when I ran Robin, I ran Robin for four and a half years, and we did really good work, and I was really proud of the work that we did. But there also was a very clear understanding of this. But if you’re not fixing the policies that are actually putting people and keeping people in poverty, then you’re just simply cleaning up the debris that comes from broken systems.
I used to have a quote sitting on my desk from Dr. King, where it said, “The philanthropist is commendable, but the philanthropist can never forget the economic injustice that makes philanthropy necessary.”
And that’s the thing that when I was going through this process and thinking about, you know what, maybe I should run for governor, because I’m constantly sitting there trying to convince and push the governor to do this, the government should do this, the governor should do that. I said, you know what, how about you run yourself and actually start making the decisions that you’ve been pushing them to make for so long, and just standing there getting frustrated because they’re not making those decisions?
Jen Psaki: I hope people are listening right now, who are contemplating whether they can run for office and thinking about it. I wanted to talk about this because I think sometimes people define it as it’s a messaging issue. The policies are all great. They just need to message better. It sounds like you’re saying it’s more than that.
Gov. Wes Moore: It’s more than that. It’s both. Because actually, I think messaging comes from actually having a core grasp and belief of what it is that you’re trying to message, where I think part of the reason that oftentimes there’s been a messaging problem is people don’t believe it. They don’t believe it themselves. They don’t think about those issues in the same way. It’s not something that’s been integral to them. It’s not something they had to come up in or had to live through.
And so, when I talk about the need to be able to say, we’ve got to do a better job of investing in education, that we have to raise a minimum wage like we’ve done in the state of Maryland, that we have to invest in childcare like we’ve done in the state of Maryland. We’ve made historic investments in childcare in our state. That we have to be able to put people on pathways to service options, like we in Maryland, Maryland is now the first state in the country that has a service share option for all of our high school graduates.
That we have to do things like I signed the largest mass pardon in the history of this country for misdemeanor cannabis convictions. It’s not because those were intellectual exercises that I went through. I’m thinking of many of my family members, many of my friends.
My mother did not get her first job that gave her benefits until I was 14 years old, first job that gave her a job with reliable hours, first job that allowed her to work one job instead of multiple jobs. She got that job when I was 14, and this is a woman who went on earning master’s degree.
So these disparities that we see in our society, they are not because people are not willing to work. That’s not the reason. We have policies that continue to be put in place, that are putting people and keeping people in challenging situations for them and their families. We have to message better by having better policies, and having better policies that are then being translated and pushed by people who actually believe in what they’re talking about. Because the people can sense something when someone is being disingenuous or when they don’t actually believe what they’re talking about.
Jen Psaki: Yeah. I also think people can sense when something is like a poll-tested, branded thing.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Right? I worked in Democratic politics obviously more than 20 years, and sometimes when things are branded, even when they have good components of them —
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: — like the opportunity agenda, which I had a lot of good stuff in it, but it sounds not real.
Gov. Wes Moore: Like a consultant.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Gov. Wes Moore: I’m telling you, when I first decided to run for governor, I had people who were trying to talk in my ear and they’re like, listen, I know you’re new to this. I know you haven’t run for office before, but —
Jen Psaki: You need a bumper sticker.
Gov. Wes Moore: You shouldn’t say poverty. Literally, look, you shouldn’t say poverty. Why? Well, it’s not a good word. People don’t like it. They don’t want to hear it. They don’t want to be reminded of it. It’s not poll-tested word.
Jen Psaki: Well, because they don’t want to be reminded of like poor people? Or what’s the issue with poverty?
Gov. Wes Moore: Honestly, I did not even pressure-test it because I dismissed it from jump. Because it’s like, listen, I want to be clear, this is a core part of my why. This is a core part of why I wanted to even get involved in this business in the first place, because I cannot believe that a country like ours allows this level of child poverty, that allows children to have their lives decided for them before they even have a say.
We are so much better than this. And so I said, well, listen, when you’re on the campaign trail, don’t use the word “poverty.” You’re basically telling me that I’m not the right person to be doing this job, because I’m not going to change who I am and I’m not going to change the things that I care about and the things that I’m going to fight for.
And so, you are right. For people who choose to get into this business, you have to be very clear about why you’re doing this in the first place. And you have to be very clear that you are the person who, at the end of the day, needs to believe in what you are saying. Because if you do not believe in what you are saying, and if you’re just willing to take and swallow what other people tell you what to say and not say the things that people are telling you to stay away from, then you will very quickly find yourself just being a vessel. And no one wants that sitting in any position of real authority or power.
Jen Psaki: We’re going to take a quick break here, and when we come back, more with Maryland Governor Wes Moore. Back in a moment.
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Jen Psaki: On the messaging of it, I mean, one of the things that I learned from trying to sell the Affordable Care Act, which you may remember was quite unpopular for many years, was that it didn’t become more popular until it was broken out into different pieces, right, which sort of seems so obvious, looking back, in some ways. If your child is under 25, you can keep them on your health insurance. This will cover pre-existing conditions, things like that.
You just gave your state of the state. You talked about a lot of specifics in there. A lot of it was on the economy and addressing needs of the working class. What have you learned about how to talk about these issues? Is the economy the number one issue in Maryland? I assume so.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah, I think it’s the number one issue everywhere.
Jen Psaki: Everywhere. But what have you learned about how to talk about it in a way that people connect with?
Gov. Wes Moore: You have to make sure that people see how this actually can tie directly back to their lives. So, for example, when I’m talking about what we’re doing around expungement, and people are like, well, why does that matter? Or the work we did around pardons or —
Jen Psaki: Expunging people’s records. Yeah.
Gov. Wes Moore: Expunging people’s records. The reason that we talk about expungement is, do you know how challenging it is for anybody, once they have served a debt to society, to be able to come back and get a home loan, to get a job, to get a student loan or get accepted to a school? What happens to us if we are basically making every sentence a life sentence? That person no longer has the ability to contribute, that person no longer has an ability to be able to participate in our economy.
The thing that I say, and one of the big reasons that we’re continuing to push on things like we’ve got to do a better job of supporting our men and boys, is if you show me a young man who does not care about their own future, you’re also showing me a young man who doesn’t care about yours either. So there’s a distinct reason why we want to make sure there are more people engaged and involved.
When we talk about raising a minimum wage and making sure that people have a chance, that no one who is working a full-time job should be living in poverty. Or when we talk about things like childcare and why we’ve made historic investments in childcare is because I don’t want any parents to have to choose between is my child going to be okay, or can I go back to the workforce?
So you got to really make it personal and you got to be able to break it down for people, so they really see how are these policy issues? How are these politicians? How is that going to impact my life, and how is this something that I should really rally behind?
And I think it’s why it’s working in our state, because I think people see that the things that we are pushing for, a tax reform that’s going to give the vast majority of Marylanders a tax cut, an ability to create more housing.
We just passed the most aggressive housing package of any Maryland governor in recent history, and we’re coming back for more again in this year’s session. It’s because people are seeing in their everyday lives that these decisions that are being made actually will have an impact on what they want for themselves and their families.
Jen Psaki: One of the many reasons I want to talk to you is that you actually talk to human beings every day as governor.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: And sometimes when you’re in Washington, and I’ve lived here on and off for 20 years, you get a little disconnected from how people are actually talking about things.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: As we look back at the election and more importantly, how we look forward, I mean, some of the areas where Trump made slight gain, some gains where among young Black men, a larger one among Latino men. Do you think that’s about the policies? Is it about how they’re talked about? Is it about misinformation? As we’re looking back, but trying to look forward, what do you make of that?
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes. I think a lot of it is all the above. Misinformation is a very real problem, and I say this because I would go oftentimes and talk to people about why I was supporting the vice president and why I wanted her to be the next president. And some of the questions that I was getting from people, I’m like, where did you get that information? These weren’t like digs at her. They thought they were asking legitimate questions, but they were so factually incorrect, that there is a problem with misinformation and where people getting their stuff from, that they’re then internalizing.
But, also, I don’t think this can be something where if people feel like the only time you care about when I think, or the only time you’re showing up is if you’re showing up every four years, then I ain’t going to have time for you.
If people feel like the things that you are spending so much time addressing a certain issue, and I feel like my issue is not being heard or interpreted, I’m not going to be excited for you. And so, I do think how we are thinking about ways we are bringing people into this conversation, how you’re talking about people like their actually assets and not deficits.
I know I’m personally exhausted by the conversation, where every time the conversation around what we’re doing to help Black men comes up, we’re talking about incarceration. I’m like, we’re not having a conversation about wages and wealth creation and all that kind of stuff. We’re having conversations about incarceration. It’s very offensive to a lot of people as this is happening.
I think one thing that we do have to be really, really careful of is the either/or, where it’s like, are you going to support immigrant families, or why does that support not go to African American families? We just got to make sure that as we are thinking about not just the policy issues and what happens in terms of voter turnout, the lack of voter turnout was not the head. That was the tail.
Jen Psaki: Tell me what you mean by that.
Gov. Wes Moore: Well, this thing was building up for a very long time. And so, when people were looking at voter rolls, like, oh, man, what happened to Black men, or what happened to Latino men? The answer is this happened a long time ago. You’re just now figuring out because we now have this quantitative data point that’s showing they’re disillusioned, they’re frustrated, and not even necessarily with a political party. They’re frustrated with political system that just doesn’t seem to see them and doesn’t seem to see them as the assets, actually, that they are. That doesn’t see a place or a space where we can have positions of real authority and leadership, where somehow when people are sitting there in these roles, that somehow it’s because of a social experiment.
I think about myself. I’m not the governor of Maryland because of a social experiment. But I also know this, I’m not the third African American ever elected governor in the history of this country because I’m only the third African American who was ever born, who was qualified to be a governor.
There are real structural problems and challenges that I think we have to be both honest about. But then as we get in these seats, be unafraid to do something about them as well. If we can do that, you’re actually going to speak to people and you’re going to watch how increased voter turnout is not going to be a revelation, but increased voter turnout is going to be something that has just been produced because you’ve already been doing the work.
Jen Psaki: I’ve read a lot of the recent interviews you’ve done. So then this really stuck out to me, I wrote it on a piece of paper. You talked about the bastardization of patriotism, which I thought was interesting, and you can talk about this because you’re a veteran. Everybody can’t talk about this, in my view.
One of the things that struck me over many years from being involved in politics is Fox News is playing in every military base. The military, I think, is largely conservative leaning, and there is an ownership of the flag and patriotism by members of the Republican Party, regardless of what that means.
How do Democrats flip that? How do they regain it? How do they address it?
Gov. Wes Moore: Well, first, I think Democrats need to care to address it.
Jen Psaki: You don’t think they care right now.
Gov. Wes Moore: I still think it’s still so foreign for people to wonder why you are patriotic, or what that means and what it looks like. And I think there’s been almost this conceding of the flag or for the word “patriotism,” which for me is deeply frustrating because, again, I think about my own family history, where my grandfather was born in South Carolina.
Literally, his earliest memory was when the Ku Klux Klan ran him and his family, my great-grandfather, my great-grandmother, out of the country. They go back to Jamaica.
Most of my family, who was with him, said they would never come back to the United States, and a lot of them did not. But my grandfather did. He comes, he goes to Lincoln University, an HBCU in Pennsylvania. He becomes a minister like his father. When he became a minister, he became the first Black minister in the history of the Dutch Reformed Church, and the same threats that was coming to his father, started coming to him, but he stuck.
I always think about my grandfather, he passed away at 87 when I was in Afghanistan, fighting for this country. He was 87 years old. He had a deep Jamaican accent, his entire life, and he’s maybe the most patriotic man I’ve ever met. He loved this country. He loved what this country stood for.
His earliest memory was a Ku Klux Klan. He was a minister in the South Bronx, and he saw the complete deterioration of a neighborhood, and in many ways, an intentional deterioration of a neighborhood. He lived through times when one of the lessons I’ve always learned from my grandparents was that you never say no to a bathroom and you never say no to a meal, because the way they grew up —
Jen Psaki: Those are good lessons.
Gov. Wes Moore: Those are good lessons, right?
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Gov. Wes Moore: If someone says you need the restroom, use it. If someone says you want something to eat, take it. Because they grew up at a time when that wasn’t guaranteed that you were going to get it whenever you wanted to. He loved this country. He was so proud when I joined the Army, which was fascinating to so many other people. But he has, literally, tears in his eyes when I told him I was joining the Army at 17 years old.
So I am passionate about what this country means because I saw it through his eyes, flaws and all. And so, the idea that, somehow, someone can take that from me, someone can take that from my family, and particularly people who have not put in the work in the same way that my family has put in the work, in the way of honoring and really loving this country and sacrificing for it, flaws and all.
I just think we need to be firm on this. And if you believe in this country, that doesn’t mean saying that it is flawless. Loving your country doesn’t mean lying about its history. But loving your country means you actually have a role in making it better, and that means willing to do the work, knowing that the history that we come from is a powerful and a bold history. And then we do have an obligation to do our part, to make it better.
Jen Psaki: I always like to end on a positive note because we’re having real candid, sometimes dark convos here.
Gov. Wes Moore: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: You’re a positive-vibed guy.
Gov. Wes Moore: I am.
Jen Psaki: I think it’s fair to say. I think a lot of people listening right now are having a hard time with what the country is going through, what they’re seeing the impact. Some people are feeling like, I don’t want to be engaged. I’m taking myself out of this. Some people are feeling like, I just don’t want to consume the news. What do you say to people? I mean, you have to do this every day. You’re the governor. So what do you say to people about why it’s important to stay engaged, and what keeps you engaged aside from your day job, of course?
Gov. Wes Moore: Yes. I think the reason that I stay engaged and why I am still deeply hopeful for the future is because I know our past. I know our past has been dark. I come from a state where people forget Maryland is the northernmost Southern state in the country.
The Mason-Dixon line runs through the state of Maryland. The bloodiest battles of the Civil War were fought in Maryland.
Maryland is the home of Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad. It’s the home of Frederick Douglass. It’s the home of Thurgood Marshall.
I think part of the reason that I am still so deeply hopeful and excited actually in this moment is because I know the journeys that we’ve come from and I know our DNA, and I do. I mean, sometimes even on really, really difficult days, I look at history and I like to read history. I’ll read up about Harriet Tubman, a woman who was born in the Eastern Shore, found her way to freedom, and then spent the remainder of her life being one of the most profound conductors in the Underground Railroad, literally doing dozens of trips, bringing people into freedom, and who I last year actually made a general. One of the great things about being a governor is you can do that stuff.
Jen Psaki: Do that, yeah. That’s pretty cool.
Gov. Wes Moore: So she’s now General Harriet Tubman. But I think about what a hypothetical conversation with Harriet Tubman would be, if I was telling her how difficult days are right now, and watching her reaction, considering what she saw every single day. And considering that when she got to her freedom and she could have been sitting in Philadelphia and saying, I’m glad I’m done with that. And instead of doing that, she then went right back down in Maryland and came and got more people. And then when she brought more people to freedom, she went right back down and brought more people to freedom.
And I imagine what her face would look like if I was sitting here telling her how difficult my day was. I think the thing that I want to remind people is do not forget how powerful you are. Don’t forget our history. We’ve seen dark days before. We’ve seen challenging moments. And the reason that we’re here is because there were people who came before us who said, hold on, we’re going to be okay. And I think right now, what our society needs of free people to say to us, we’re going to be okay, guys, just hold on.
Jen Psaki: Governor Wes Moore. A perfect place to end. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Gov. Wes Moore: Thank you, Jen. This is so exciting.
Jen Psaki: Thanks for listening to “The Blueprint with Jen Psaki.” Episode 2, which is my conversation with Jack Schlossberg is in your feeds now, and you can check back every Monday for a new episode.
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The senior producer for “The Blueprint” is Margaret Menefee, and our producer is Vicki Vergolina. John Ball is our associate producer. Our booking producer is Michelle Hoffner, and we had additional support from Makena Roberts, Will Robbie (sp?) and Matt Rivera. Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Katie Lau, and Bryson Barnes is the head of audio production. Alex Luka Goho is the executive producer of “Inside with Jen Psaki,” and Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC Audio.
I’m your host, Jen Psaki. Remember to search for “The Blueprint” wherever you get your podcast and follow the series.